Gog Magog

[Ferg]

We may still lack perfect knowledge concerning the details of the Apocalypse, but the book of Revelation definately clarifies certain major aspects for us, and is a source of ongoing encouragement for the saints. God has not kept the end of the history of redemption hidden from his people, but instead has let his people know "how the book ends" so that there might be a sure source "for the greater consolation of the godly in their adversity."


Above all things, Revelation is the story of the total victory of the Lamb over the forces of evil and death. Nowhere is this more clearly  indicated than in the final battle scenes of chapters 19 and 20 where Jesus, "KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS" (Rev. 20:16), triumphs over Satan (20:10), the Beast and the False Prophet (19:20), and their followers (19:21, 20:9).

The question is, is this final battle where the Lord triumphs over the forces of antichrist only to be found in Revelation? The answer to that question must be "no". The imagery of Revelation 19 and 20, and in particular the direct references to Gog and Magog are from the Old Testament book of Ezekiel. In its 38th and 39th chapters, we see the veiled events that are unfolded with greater clarity in Revelation chapters 19 and 20.


Revelation 20 versus 7 and 8 read: "When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth--Gog and Magog--to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore."

This is the first and only reference to "Gog and Magog" in the New Testament. But it is not the first reference to Gog and Magog in the Bible. We first encounter Magog in Genesis 10:2: "The sons of Japheth were Gomer and Magog and Madai and Javan and Tubal and Meshech and Tiras." The name "Magog" occurs as part of the list of nations descended from Noah.

The word "Magog" is probably actually a two syllable word formed from MA + GOG, the Ma probably from either the Akkadian for "land of" or the Hebrew noun prefix Ma meaning "place". Magog in Genesis 10:2 signifies one of the tribes that settled far to the North of ancient Israel, and this will have particular significance in Ezekiel 38 & 39 as the forces of Gog are said to come from the remotest parts of the North against Israel (Ezekiel 38:15).

Genesis 10:2 The sons of Japheth; Gomer, and Magog, and Madai, and Javan, and Tubal, and Meshech, and Tiras.


In Ezekiel 38 we learn more about the identity of Gog that confirms our initial observations from Genesis 10:2. In Ezekiel 38:2 Gog is said to be of the land of Magog, so literally Gog is of the land of the place of Gog. Gog is also said to be "the prince of Rosh, Meshech and Tubal." This confirms and repeats the names occurring originally in Genesis 10:2. Here we are being given a strong indication that these place names and titles are symbolic. At the time Ezekiel made his prophecy, there was no kingdom known as Gog to the North.

The recurring use of the name 'Gog' indicates to us that these were unbelieving nations to the North descended, as were all men, from the sons of Noah. The use of the names Rosh, Meshech, and Tubal are indications that this Gog, will not simply command the men of his own land, but instead will be the head of an alliance or confederation of nations. In fact, while the provenance of Gog is from the North, later language indicates strongly to us that the alliance he commands will consist of nations from the four corners of the earth. Persia to the East, and Ethiopia and Put to the South are specifically mentioned, for instance. All of these nations will be assembled and come out of the North as a "great assembly and a mighty army" (Ezek. 38:15) in order to attack God’s people, Israel (38:16).


The enemies of Israel coming from the North is a recurring theme in Old Testament prophetic literature. Throughout the book of Isaiah, the primary enemies of Judah, Assyria and Babylon are always described as coming from the North. In Isaiah 14 the enemy from the North is described as a cloud of "smoke" (Is. 14:31). There are repeated references made to the enemy coming from the North, whether that is Babylon or Assyria (In Isaiah and Jeremiah), or to a later ambiguous enemy, as is the case in Ezekiel 38 and 39.

Indeed, some theologians argue that in the Major and Minor prophets of the Old Testament, the North becomes the source of all judgment, the place from whence the nations descend to sack Judah and Jerusalem and carry her people off as captives. Jeremiah opens with the promise that "Out of the north the evil will break forth on all the inhabitants of the land" (Jeremiah 1:15). It is important to note that although these hordes from the North bring destruction and evil (Jer. 4:6, 6:1), there is almost always an acknowledgment that they come at the bidding of the Lord. The Lord brings the enemy as a means of judging his people:

"For, behold, I am calling all the families of the kingdoms of the north,'' declares the LORD; "and they will come and they will set each one his throne at the entrance of the gates of Jerusalem, and against all its walls round about and against all the cities of Judah." (Jeremiah 1:15).

In words that some may not find palatable, the Lord even describes these enemies from the North as his "servants" as is the case with Nebuchadnezzar in Jeremiah 25:9.

There is no such reference in Ezekiel 38 and 39 however. These enemies of God and his people are not described as his servants and are clearly not being used as an instrument of Judgment upon Judah and Jerusalem. Rather, while they are gathered together and brought (as were previous armies from the North), to wage war on Israel (Ezek. 38:4, 38:16, 39:2), these armies are being brought by the Lord for the purpose of their own destruction in the mountains of Judah. The ultimate purpose behind this is that nations would see the glory of the Lord in the destruction of the enemies of His people (Ezek. 38:16, 38:23, 39:7, 39:21).


In Ezekiel 38 and 39, Gog is referred to in the singular repeatedly as the "prince of Rosh, Meshech and Tubal". This seems to be a strong indication that Gog should not be thought of as merely representing a nation or indeed the entire confederation of nations sent to attack the people of God. Rather, Gog himself is an antichrist figure, most likely the Beast of Revelation. This is in keeping with the repeated emphasis that all those in the world who are not part of the church will follow the beast;

Rev. 13:3 And the whole earth was amazed and followed after the beast


The events of Revelation 20:7-10 are a recapitulation of the events of Revelation 19:17-21. The Beast is cast into the Lake of Fire in Rev. 19:20, so if Gog is the Beast then the attack against the people of God in 19:17-21 must be the same attack that is described in Revelation 20:7-10.


The language of Ezekiel 38 is most likely figuratively referring to the great mass of people from every nation under the sun, literally from "the four corners of the earth" (Rev. 20:8) who are deceived by Satan. These are they who will be marshaled by Satan and the Beast to attack the church, "God’s people".

Here we see an example of the theme of counterfeiting which recurs throughout the book of Revelation. Ezekiel 38-39 and Revelation 19-20 speak of counterfeit "church militant" assembled by Satan to attack the true church. Just as the Beast is the antichrist, so his followers compose the 'antichurch'. In Matthew 16:18 Christ promises that "…I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it", and so we see in the vain plotting of Gog in Ezekiel 38:10-11 to overcome and plunder the people of God, a false claim against the real assurance of the final victory of the church.


This attack against the people of God in Ezekiel 38 and 39 has a ring of eschatological finality to it,  as it is clearly a description of the final Apocalyptic battle in which God will triumph over the enemies of His people, the Church. Gog and the Confederation of Nations will "fall on the mountains of Israel" (Ezek. 39:4) and "fall on the open field" (Ezekiel 39:5) and then fire will be sent upon Magog (Ezek. 39:6). Gog and his armies will attack the people of God, seeing them as relatively defenseless against his mighty armies (Ezek. 38:11-12). But, in a scene reminiscent of God’s defense of Jerusalem when it was attacked by Sennacherib (Isaiah 36), God will fight for his people and defend the holy city, and the armies of Gog will be utterly destroyed. The carnage resulting from the Lord’s destruction of Gog’s armies will be so great that it will take the entire house of Israel 7 months to bury the dead (Ezek. 39:12) and 7 years to burn the assorted equipment of the fallen armies (Ezek. 39:9). The double use of the number 7 in these passages also indicates the totality of the defeat.


We should note that in both Ezekiel 38-39 and Revelation 19-20, it is the Lord who himself defeats the enemies of his people. He is described as a mighty warrior who knocks the weapons out of the hands of the enemy and rains fire from heaven upon them in Ezekiel 39. In Revelation 19 Jesus, the sacrificial Lamb who was slain, is now pictured as a warrior who "judges and wages war" seated upon a white horse (Rev. 19:11). This awesome picture of Jesus as the Divine Warrior – "From His mouth comes a sharp sword, so that with it He may strike down the nations, and He will rule them with a rod of iron; and He treads the wine press of the fierce wrath of God, the Almighty (Rev. 19:15) – should be the death knell of any theology that can only accept a Christ who is a gentle and mild mystic sage. Here in the parousia we see Jesus coming as the divine Warrior and Judge of the nations. The time of grace and mercy has passed, now Jesus comes just as he promised to judge and condemn the enemies of God.


Of critical importance to the connection between Ezekiel 38-39 and Revelation 19-20 are the passages in Ezekiel 39:17-20 in which an invitation is extended to "every kind of bird and to every beast of the field" to come to sacrificial feast that the Lord is preparing. This macabre feast will consist of the corpses of the fallen armies. The promise is that the birds and the beasts will feast on the flesh and blood of princes of the earth, horses and charioteers, mighty men and all the men of war (Ezek. 39:20). The entire host that had hoped to exalt themselves and despoil the House of Israel will instead become no more than food for the animals. This language of invitation to the feast is also found in Revelation 19 when an Angel "standing in the sun" calls the birds to assemble for "the great supper of God" which is the feast in which the armies of the beast will be consumed after their defeat. Of special interest is the language of verse 19:18 which speaks of the birds being invited to feast upon the "…flesh of all men, both free men and slaves, and small and great.'' There is a note here of universality. The great host of the beast will consist of all those who are not part of the church.

The concept of the enemies of God being eaten by the birds and the beasts are found in both Ezekiel and Revelation. In Samuel 17, David answers the taunts of the Philistine champion Goliath with an assurance that he will not only give his flesh to "to the birds of the sky and the beasts of the field" but that the carcasses of the Philistine army will also be given to the "birds of the sky and the wild beasts of the earth" (1 Sam. 17:44,46). Here the stated purpose of this curse delivered by David is "that all the earth may know that there is a God in Israel" (1 Sam. 17:46). Surely, it is no coincidence that in Ezekiel 39 after the prophecy that the host of Gog will also be given as carrion to the birds and the beasts that the Lord declares that "all the nations will see My judgment which I have executed" (Ezek. 39:21) In both Ezekiel 39 and 1 Samuel 17 the enemies of the Lord are put to shame by not only not being buried, but in becoming nothing more than offal for beasts. In 1 Samuel 17 we also have an incredible prefiguring of the events of the eschaton described in Revelation 19.

David, foreshadowing the coming Messiah (of whom he was a type), fights against the enemies of the Lord and His people and triumphs over them, fulfilling his own prophecy that he would give their flesh to the birds and the beasts. Goliath, himself a type of antichrist, represents the Beast, and like the Beast he too is struck down by the Lord whom he ultimately came up to fight against.


This scene of the utter destruction of the Beast and his followers in Revelation 19:17-21 would seem to complete the destruction of the "antagonistic, ungodly world system." The language is that of a final victory of Christ and His armies over the antichrist and his ungodly host.

Dispensationalist theologians have historically taken the position that the events of Revelation 19:17-21 are separate from the events of Revelation 20:7-10 and precede them. So if we were to construct a premillenial timeline of the events detailed in Revelation 19 and 20, we would see the battle in Revelation 19 as a final battle with the Beast and his human followers at the end of the end times. The antichrist and the false prophet will be defeated and cast into the Lake of Fire (Hell) for eternity and Satan will be imprisoned (Rev. 20:2) Then, there will be a thousand year (millennial) reign of Jesus Christ on Earth (Rev. 20:4).

At the end of this thousand-year reign, Satan will be released and he will deceive the people of the nations. Yet another great host of the deceived will be assembled to attack "the camp of the saints and the beloved city" (Rev. 20:9). God will defeat these armies as well, and Satan will join the beast and the false prophet in Hell. (Rev. 20:10)


There are a number of problems with this interpretation, not the least of which is that it creates three separate chronologically distinct Apocalyptic battles between God and His people and Satan and his minions (Rev. 16:14-16, Rev. 19:11-21, Rev. 20:7-10). In each of these battles Satan deceives all the nations and gathers them together, they fight against the Lord and are utterly destroyed. This idea on its own is a stretch of theological credulity.   

As we have seen, Rev. 19:11-21 clearly uses the same language of the sacrifice and feasting upon the enemies of God that is found in Ezekiel 39:17-20, and the apocalyptic reference to Gog and Magog in Revelation 20:8 cannot be thought to come from anywhere else in the Bible but Ezekiel 38-39.


The relationship of Rev 20:7-10 to Ezekiel 38-39, obvious enough from the adoption of the Gog-Magog terminology in Revelation 20, is also evidenced by a set of basic similarities:

1. The marshaling of hordes from the four quarters of the earth (Ezek 38:2-7, 15; 39:4; Rev 20:8);

2. The march of the gathered armies to encompass the saints in the city of God, center of the world (Ezek 38:7-9, 12, 16; Rev 20:9);

3. The orchestration of the event by God (Ezek 38:4, 16; 39:2, 19; Rev 20:3, 7);

4. The timing of the event after a lengthy period in which God's people were kept secure from such a universal assault (Ezek 38:8, 11; Rev 20:3);

5. The eschatological finality of the crisis (Ezek 39:22, 26, 29; Rev 20:10 ff.);

6. The fiery destruction of the evil forces (Ezek 38:22; 39:6: Rev 20:9-10)


If both Revelation 19:17-21 and 20:7-10 refer to the single apocalyptic battle of Ezekiel 38 and 39, why do we have confusion among theologians?


First of all, some Premillennialists  claim that Ezekiel 38 and 39 prophesy two separate battles. this is rejected by the majority of Biblical commentators who feel that chapter 39 is a recapitulation of Chapter 38. Other theologians contend that the events of 38 and 39 were fulfilled in the 2nd Century BC and that John is merely using the language of Ezekiel to describe entirely different events


Neither of these solutions address the problem in a satisfactory manner. It seems to be more in keeping with scripture to assume a natural and consistent relationship between the events of Ezekiel 38-39 and the events of Revelation 19-20. Furthermore, it seems difficult to understand why Ezekiel would describe the same battle twice.


There is also the practical problem of logistics in supposing that these are two separate battles. In the account of the battle in Rev. 19:11-21, the victory of Christ over the Beast and His armies is conclusive. The idea of "survivors" of this conflict who again challenge the Lamb and His people seems to fly in the face of the totality of the defeat and evidence of no survivors (Rev. 19:21). Then there is the question of nations again rising up after a thousand-year literal reign of Christ. Presumably these are the descendents of the Christians who had triumphed with Christ over the beast. Since the numbers of the nations that will gather to fight against the Saints are described as being "like the sand of the seashore" (Rev. 20:8) which is a biblical way of saying "innumerable" (see Gen. 22:17, 32:12, & 41:49) this scenario presupposes a time of massive apostasy occurring during the very period when Satan is imprisoned and cannot deceive the nations (Rev. 22:3) and Christ is ruling.


In the face of these logistical acrobatics, it would seem to be more likely that both Revelation 19:17-21 and Revelation 20:7-10 are alluding to the same final battle. So, following the lead of Ezekiel chapters 38 and 39, John has given us a description of the same battle twice with attention given to different details in each chapter.

The "thousand years" mentioned in Revelation 20:7 then, cannot be a literal period of one thousand years following the events described in chapter 19, but rather are a symbolic reference to the church age during which the great commission is fulfilled. Once this age comes to a close, we are to expect the Parousia (Rev. 19:11), the final battle between Christ and his people and the powers of antichrist and those they have deceived (Rev. 19:17-21, Rev. 20:7-10) and the final judgment (Rev. 20:11-15).

These are all events that happen simultaneously at the second advent.


Chapters 38 and 39 of Ezekiel describe a final cataclysmic battle between Gog and his armies and the Lord that results in the utter devastation of all who oppose the Lord and his people Israel. Revelation 19:17-21

This is the progressive unfolding of revelation, "what is in the old concealed, is in the new revealed." It was not until the writing of the book of Revelation many hundreds of years later, that it became evident exactly what these chapters in Ezekiel where pointing towards. By using language directly taken from these chapters in his narratives of the final battle between Christ and the antichrist, the Apostle John makes it clear that the Battle in Ezekiel would involve more than just the human enemies of Israel. Ezekiel chapters 38 and 39 are a description of the final defeat of the antichrist and his followers from all the nations of the earth, who, in attacking the "camp of the saints and the beloved city" (Rev. 20:9), who meet their doom in the "mountains of Israel" (Ezek. 39:4). Both of these passages are references to Mt. Zion, the dwelling place of God in the Old Testament.


John has revealed to us that Ezekiel 38 and 39 are, in fact, the narrative of the last battle of the Beast, Satan’s pawn. Gog is the great pretender who exalts himself and tries to take the crown of Christ, and destroy the bride of the Lamb. In that final battle, the false Christ, Gog, comes from his dwelling place, "Magog" (Ezek. 38:2) the false Zion of the North, gathering by lies and deceit his false church from the "four corners of the earth" (Rev. 20:8). Instead of the glory he desires, like Sodom, his inheritance is not the kingdom (Matthew 25:34), but rather fire. Fire that comes from heaven to consume his armies (Ezek. 38:22; 39:6, Rev. 20:9) and the fire of eternal punishment in Hell (Rev. 19:20, Rev. 20:9). This is the final doom of Gog and Magog.

[TheFourHorsemen]

Hi Ferg,

You have some interesting ideas, but I have a few questions about them.

If Ezekiel 38-39 is actually the battle mentioned in Rev 20, then why would Israel need to burn weapons for seven years as fuel, as is mentioned in Ezekiel?

If it is the last battle, and the last resurrection is about to take place, why would Israel need to bury the bodies for seven months?

It seems like God destroys the heavens and the earth with fire just after the Rev 20 battle and creates a new heavens and a new earth.  If this is true, why would Israel need to bury dead, employ people to search for dead bodies for years, and use fuel? 

Ezekiel 39:

14 And they shall sever out men of continual employment, passing through the land to bury with the passengers those that remain upon the face of the earth, to cleanse it: after the end of seven months shall they search.

15 And the passengers that pass through the land, when any seeth a man's bone, then shall he set up a sign by it, till the buriers have buried it in the valley of Hamongog.

16 And also the name of the city shall be Hamonah. Thus shall they cleanse the land.

God even says that people who pass by the graves will have their noses stopped up.  I take this to mean that there will be a great stench coming from that area.  Do you think this will be in the new earth?

Ezekiel 39:

11 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will give unto Gog a place there of graves in Israel, the valley of the passengers on the east of the sea: and it shall stop the noses of the passengers: and there shall they bury Gog and all his multitude: and they shall call it The valley of Hamongog.


There are many other questions that come up when I compare the two battles, and I currently believe the battle of Magog in Ezekiel 38-39 matches more closely with the seals and the first trumpet:

Ezekiel 38:

18 And it shall come to pass at the same time when Gog shall come against the land of Israel, saith the Lord GOD, that my fury shall come up in my face.

19 For in my jealousy and in the fire of my wrath have I spoken, Surely in that day there shall be a great shaking in the land of Israel; (seal six earthquake)

20 So that the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the heaven, and the beasts of the field, and all creeping things that creep upon the earth, and all the men that are upon the face of the earth, shall shake at my presence, and the mountains shall be thrown down, and the steep places shall fall, and every wall shall fall to the ground. (seal six earthquake)

21 And I will call for a sword against him throughout all my mountains, saith the Lord GOD: every man's sword shall be against his brother. (seal two and four-sword)

22 And I will plead against him with pestilence (seal four) and with blood (first trumpet); and I will rain upon him, and upon his bands, and upon the many people that are with him, an overflowing rain, and great hailstones, fire, and brimstone. (first trumpet)

Ezekiel 39:

4 Thou shalt fall upon the mountains of Israel, thou, and all thy bands, and the people that is with thee: I will give thee unto the ravenous birds of every sort, and to the beasts of the field to be devoured. (seal four-beasts of the earth)

5 Thou shalt fall upon the open field: for I have spoken it, saith the Lord GOD.

6 And I will send a fire on Magog, and among them that dwell carelessly in the isles: and they shall know that I am the LORD. (first trumpet)

We also see during the sixth seal that the nations recognize that the Day of the Lord has come and cry out:

Revelation 6:

15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

This also matches up well with the Ezekiel passage, where the people recognize that God is involved. I believe that the anti-christ and Satan will be able to use this to their own advantage and deceive the world.  If the Magog war happens at the beginning of the tribulation, the remaining people will be yelling for peace and safety after a quarter of the world just died.  The false religions will probably say that God is angry at all the conflicts and wants the world to unite in peace and harmony, and unite into a single religion.

I currently think that it is possible based on verses I have read, that the whole world will see Christ come in the air during the sixth seal.  I do believe in a rapture, but believe that our bodies might remain behind.  If this is the case, then when the world sees God in the air, they will see Him bring great judgements to the world, including what they will perceive as God destroying all the Christians.  If this is the case, then how easy would it be for the anti-christ to explain away what has just happened?  How easy would it be to prove that fundamental Christianity is not the way to go?  Fundamental Christians would be too stubborn to accept unity with the other religions, so they had to go.

These are just possibilities.  There are many verses that seem to indicate that our bodies may remain behind, and if that is the case, then the rapture would seem to be another judgement on man.  I think that there is a good possibility that the rapture may coincide with the great earthquake that shakes the whole world during seal six.  Seal six also is where the nations cry that the Day of the Lord has come.  I believe this is the start of the seven year tribulation period.  The riders of the first four seals will ride throughout the tribulation period dealing their damage, but they may deal most of the damage during the Magog war.

Love,

Bruce

[witty1]

I also believe these are two separate and distinct battles. There are just too many differences.

[Ferg]

Such as, my dear Witters?

[roamer_1]

Hiya Ferg,

I am afraid I must stand w/ 4Horses and Witty1 on this issue.

Without regard to the differences (for the moment), I think it would be more interesting to first assault the similarities:

1. Without a doubt, the words "Gog and Magog" form a linkage, though the linkage is not that firm, as no one knows for certain just what "Gog" and "Magog" are.

It is interesting to note that Ezekiel is addressed directly to a Chief Prince:

Eze 38:2  Son of man, set thy face against Gog, the land of Magog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal, and prophesy against him,
Eze 38:3  And say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against thee, O Gog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal:

whereas Revelations is directed at the actions of Satan himself:

Rev 20:7  And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
Rev 20:8  And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

A "chief prince" is not a being of this earth. This is not a king He is speaking to. A "chief prince" is a designation for an angel of archangel status, thus Ezekiel is directed to a principality- The archangel class demon who presides over Meshesch and Tubal, whose name is Gog (or so it would seem). This seems to be a difference from Satan himself, who is the king of evil forces.

One might take note of others called "chief princes" by comparison:

Dan 10:13  But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia.

We know that Michael is an archangel, so my thought is that Gog would be his antithesis (an arch-demon) of similar caliber.


2. Raining fire and brimstone, while not to lessen it's severity, seems to be standard fare for Jehovah when He is angry- Again, not to lessen it, but it seems to be one of His favorite weapons, it being included in nearly every campaign the Almighty participates personally in.


3.The marshaling of hordes from the four quarters of the earth (Ezek 38:2-7, 15; 39:4; Rev 20:8);

While similar, The passage in Ezekiel implies a subset of specifically named nations, while Revelations suggests a much broader "worldwide" campaign.


There is a distinct difference as 4H has suggested, in regard to time after the event- One seems to be the very end of time (Armageddon), while the other (Gog/Magog) has much to say about what happens following the event- bringing it much closer in parallel to the other OT final battle scenes starring a character called the "Assyrian" (Isaiah, Zechariah, Joel, Hosea). The aggregate of these stories leave Israel in an idyllic time, with David upon the throne in Jerusalem, Israel united and ministering to a broken world. Here there is a balm in Gilead, and waters flowing from the throne in Jerusalem... the river Jordan having trees with leaves of healing...

Perhaps widening the study to include these other battle scenes would be enlightening.

-Roamer.

[Portier]

We may still lack perfect knowledge concerning the details of the Apocalypse, but the book of Revelation definately clarifies certain major aspects for us, and is a source of ongoing encouragement for the saints. God has not kept the end of the history of redemption hidden from his people, but instead has let his people know "how the book ends" so that there might be a sure source "for the greater consolation of the godly in their adversity."


Above all things, Revelation is the story of the total victory of the Lamb over the forces of evil and death. Nowhere is this more clearly  indicated than in the final battle scenes of chapters 19 and 20 where Jesus, "KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS" (Rev. 20:16), triumphs over Satan (20:10), the Beast and the False Prophet (19:20), and their followers (19:21, 20:9).

The question is, is this final battle where the Lord triumphs over the forces of antichrist only to be found in Revelation? The answer to that question must be "no". The imagery of Revelation 19 and 20, and in particular the direct references to Gog and Magog are from the Old Testament book of Ezekiel. In its 38th and 39th chapters, we see the veiled events that are unfolded with greater clarity in Revelation chapters 19 and 20.


Revelation 20 versus 7 and 8 read: "When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth--Gog and Magog--to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore."

This is the first and only reference to "Gog and Magog" in the New Testament. But it is not the first reference to Gog and Magog in the Bible. We first encounter Magog in Genesis 10:2: "The sons of Japheth were Gomer and Magog and Madai and Javan and Tubal and Meshech and Tiras." The name "Magog" occurs as part of the list of nations descended from Noah.

The word "Magog" is probably actually a two syllable word formed from MA + GOG, the Ma probably from either the Akkadian for "land of" or the Hebrew noun prefix Ma meaning "place". Magog in Genesis 10:2 signifies one of the tribes that settled far to the North of ancient Israel, and this will have particular significance in Ezekiel 38 & 39 as the forces of Gog are said to come from the remotest parts of the North against Israel (Ezekiel 38:15).

Genesis 10:2 The sons of Japheth; Gomer, and Magog, and Madai, and Javan, and Tubal, and Meshech, and Tiras.


In Ezekiel 38 we learn more about the identity of Gog that confirms our initial observations from Genesis 10:2. In Ezekiel 38:2 Gog is said to be of the land of Magog, so literally Gog is of the land of the place of Gog. Gog is also said to be "the prince of Rosh, Meshech and Tubal." This confirms and repeats the names occurring originally in Genesis 10:2. Here we are being given a strong indication that these place names and titles are symbolic. At the time Ezekiel made his prophecy, there was no kingdom known as Gog to the North.

The recurring use of the name 'Gog' indicates to us that these were unbelieving nations to the North descended, as were all men, from the sons of Noah. The use of the names Rosh, Meshech, and Tubal are indications that this Gog, will not simply command the men of his own land, but instead will be the head of an alliance or confederation of nations. In fact, while the provenance of Gog is from the North, later language indicates strongly to us that the alliance he commands will consist of nations from the four corners of the earth. Persia to the East, and Ethiopia and Put to the South are specifically mentioned, for instance. All of these nations will be assembled and come out of the North as a "great assembly and a mighty army" (Ezek. 38:15) in order to attack God’s people, Israel (38:16).


The enemies of Israel coming from the North is a recurring theme in Old Testament prophetic literature. Throughout the book of Isaiah, the primary enemies of Judah, Assyria and Babylon are always described as coming from the North. In Isaiah 14 the enemy from the North is described as a cloud of "smoke" (Is. 14:31). There are repeated references made to the enemy coming from the North, whether that is Babylon or Assyria (In Isaiah and Jeremiah), or to a later ambiguous enemy, as is the case in Ezekiel 38 and 39.

Indeed, some theologians argue that in the Major and Minor prophets of the Old Testament, the North becomes the source of all judgment, the place from whence the nations descend to sack Judah and Jerusalem and carry her people off as captives. Jeremiah opens with the promise that "Out of the north the evil will break forth on all the inhabitants of the land" (Jeremiah 1:15). It is important to note that although these hordes from the North bring destruction and evil (Jer. 4:6, 6:1), there is almost always an acknowledgment that they come at the bidding of the Lord. The Lord brings the enemy as a means of judging his people:

"For, behold, I am calling all the families of the kingdoms of the north,'' declares the LORD; "and they will come and they will set each one his throne at the entrance of the gates of Jerusalem, and against all its walls round about and against all the cities of Judah." (Jeremiah 1:15).

In words that some may not find palatable, the Lord even describes these enemies from the North as his "servants" as is the case with Nebuchadnezzar in Jeremiah 25:9.

There is no such reference in Ezekiel 38 and 39 however. These enemies of God and his people are not described as his servants and are clearly not being used as an instrument of Judgment upon Judah and Jerusalem. Rather, while they are gathered together and brought (as were previous armies from the North), to wage war on Israel (Ezek. 38:4, 38:16, 39:2), these armies are being brought by the Lord for the purpose of their own destruction in the mountains of Judah. The ultimate purpose behind this is that nations would see the glory of the Lord in the destruction of the enemies of His people (Ezek. 38:16, 38:23, 39:7, 39:21).


In Ezekiel 38 and 39, Gog is referred to in the singular repeatedly as the "prince of Rosh, Meshech and Tubal". This seems to be a strong indication that Gog should not be thought of as merely representing a nation or indeed the entire confederation of nations sent to attack the people of God. Rather, Gog himself is an antichrist figure, most likely the Beast of Revelation. This is in keeping with the repeated emphasis that all those in the world who are not part of the church will follow the beast;

Rev. 13:3 And the whole earth was amazed and followed after the beast


The events of Revelation 20:7-10 are a recapitulation of the events of Revelation 19:17-21. The Beast is cast into the Lake of Fire in Rev. 19:20, so if Gog is the Beast then the attack against the people of God in 19:17-21 must be the same attack that is described in Revelation 20:7-10.


The language of Ezekiel 38 is most likely figuratively referring to the great mass of people from every nation under the sun, literally from "the four corners of the earth" (Rev. 20:8) who are deceived by Satan. These are they who will be marshaled by Satan and the Beast to attack the church, "God’s people".

Here we see an example of the theme of counterfeiting which recurs throughout the book of Revelation. Ezekiel 38-39 and Revelation 19-20 speak of counterfeit "church militant" assembled by Satan to attack the true church. Just as the Beast is the antichrist, so his followers compose the 'antichurch'. In Matthew 16:18 Christ promises that "…I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it", and so we see in the vain plotting of Gog in Ezekiel 38:10-11 to overcome and plunder the people of God, a false claim against the real assurance of the final victory of the church.


This attack against the people of God in Ezekiel 38 and 39 has a ring of eschatological finality to it,  as it is clearly a description of the final Apocalyptic battle in which God will triumph over the enemies of His people, the Church. Gog and the Confederation of Nations will "fall on the mountains of Israel" (Ezek. 39:4) and "fall on the open field" (Ezekiel 39:5) and then fire will be sent upon Magog (Ezek. 39:6). Gog and his armies will attack the people of God, seeing them as relatively defenseless against his mighty armies (Ezek. 38:11-12). But, in a scene reminiscent of God’s defense of Jerusalem when it was attacked by Sennacherib (Isaiah 36), God will fight for his people and defend the holy city, and the armies of Gog will be utterly destroyed. The carnage resulting from the Lord’s destruction of Gog’s armies will be so great that it will take the entire house of Israel 7 months to bury the dead (Ezek. 39:12) and 7 years to burn the assorted equipment of the fallen armies (Ezek. 39:9). The double use of the number 7 in these passages also indicates the totality of the defeat.


We should note that in both Ezekiel 38-39 and Revelation 19-20, it is the Lord who himself defeats the enemies of his people. He is described as a mighty warrior who knocks the weapons out of the hands of the enemy and rains fire from heaven upon them in Ezekiel 39. In Revelation 19 Jesus, the sacrificial Lamb who was slain, is now pictured as a warrior who "judges and wages war" seated upon a white horse (Rev. 19:11). This awesome picture of Jesus as the Divine Warrior – "From His mouth comes a sharp sword, so that with it He may strike down the nations, and He will rule them with a rod of iron; and He treads the wine press of the fierce wrath of God, the Almighty (Rev. 19:15) – should be the death knell of any theology that can only accept a Christ who is a gentle and mild mystic sage. Here in the parousia we see Jesus coming as the divine Warrior and Judge of the nations. The time of grace and mercy has passed, now Jesus comes just as he promised to judge and condemn the enemies of God.


Of critical importance to the connection between Ezekiel 38-39 and Revelation 19-20 are the passages in Ezekiel 39:17-20 in which an invitation is extended to "every kind of bird and to every beast of the field" to come to sacrificial feast that the Lord is preparing. This macabre feast will consist of the corpses of the fallen armies. The promise is that the birds and the beasts will feast on the flesh and blood of princes of the earth, horses and charioteers, mighty men and all the men of war (Ezek. 39:20). The entire host that had hoped to exalt themselves and despoil the House of Israel will instead become no more than food for the animals. This language of invitation to the feast is also found in Revelation 19 when an Angel "standing in the sun" calls the birds to assemble for "the great supper of God" which is the feast in which the armies of the beast will be consumed after their defeat. Of special interest is the language of verse 19:18 which speaks of the birds being invited to feast upon the "…flesh of all men, both free men and slaves, and small and great.'' There is a note here of universality. The great host of the beast will consist of all those who are not part of the church.

The concept of the enemies of God being eaten by the birds and the beasts are found in both Ezekiel and Revelation. In Samuel 17, David answers the taunts of the Philistine champion Goliath with an assurance that he will not only give his flesh to "to the birds of the sky and the beasts of the field" but that the carcasses of the Philistine army will also be given to the "birds of the sky and the wild beasts of the earth" (1 Sam. 17:44,46). Here the stated purpose of this curse delivered by David is "that all the earth may know that there is a God in Israel" (1 Sam. 17:46). Surely, it is no coincidence that in Ezekiel 39 after the prophecy that the host of Gog will also be given as carrion to the birds and the beasts that the Lord declares that "all the nations will see My judgment which I have executed" (Ezek. 39:21) In both Ezekiel 39 and 1 Samuel 17 the enemies of the Lord are put to shame by not only not being buried, but in becoming nothing more than offal for beasts. In 1 Samuel 17 we also have an incredible prefiguring of the events of the eschaton described in Revelation 19.

David, foreshadowing the coming Messiah (of whom he was a type), fights against the enemies of the Lord and His people and triumphs over them, fulfilling his own prophecy that he would give their flesh to the birds and the beasts. Goliath, himself a type of antichrist, represents the Beast, and like the Beast he too is struck down by the Lord whom he ultimately came up to fight against.


This scene of the utter destruction of the Beast and his followers in Revelation 19:17-21 would seem to complete the destruction of the "antagonistic, ungodly world system." The language is that of a final victory of Christ and His armies over the antichrist and his ungodly host.

Dispensationalist theologians have historically taken the position that the events of Revelation 19:17-21 are separate from the events of Revelation 20:7-10 and precede them. So if we were to construct a premillenial timeline of the events detailed in Revelation 19 and 20, we would see the battle in Revelation 19 as a final battle with the Beast and his human followers at the end of the end times. The antichrist and the false prophet will be defeated and cast into the Lake of Fire (Hell) for eternity and Satan will be imprisoned (Rev. 20:2) Then, there will be a thousand year (millennial) reign of Jesus Christ on Earth (Rev. 20:4).

At the end of this thousand-year reign, Satan will be released and he will deceive the people of the nations. Yet another great host of the deceived will be assembled to attack "the camp of the saints and the beloved city" (Rev. 20:9). God will defeat these armies as well, and Satan will join the beast and the false prophet in Hell. (Rev. 20:10)


There are a number of problems with this interpretation, not the least of which is that it creates three separate chronologically distinct Apocalyptic battles between God and His people and Satan and his minions (Rev. 16:14-16, Rev. 19:11-21, Rev. 20:7-10). In each of these battles Satan deceives all the nations and gathers them together, they fight against the Lord and are utterly destroyed. This idea on its own is a stretch of theological credulity.   

As we have seen, Rev. 19:11-21 clearly uses the same language of the sacrifice and feasting upon the enemies of God that is found in Ezekiel 39:17-20, and the apocalyptic reference to Gog and Magog in Revelation 20:8 cannot be thought to come from anywhere else in the Bible but Ezekiel 38-39.


The relationship of Rev 20:7-10 to Ezekiel 38-39, obvious enough from the adoption of the Gog-Magog terminology in Revelation 20, is also evidenced by a set of basic similarities:

1. The marshaling of hordes from the four quarters of the earth (Ezek 38:2-7, 15; 39:4; Rev 20:8);

2. The march of the gathered armies to encompass the saints in the city of God, center of the world (Ezek 38:7-9, 12, 16; Rev 20:9);

3. The orchestration of the event by God (Ezek 38:4, 16; 39:2, 19; Rev 20:3, 7);

4. The timing of the event after a lengthy period in which God's people were kept secure from such a universal assault (Ezek 38:8, 11; Rev 20:3);

5. The eschatological finality of the crisis (Ezek 39:22, 26, 29; Rev 20:10 ff.);

6. The fiery destruction of the evil forces (Ezek 38:22; 39:6: Rev 20:9-10)


If both Revelation 19:17-21 and 20:7-10 refer to the single apocalyptic battle of Ezekiel 38 and 39, why do we have confusion among theologians?


First of all, some Premillennialists  claim that Ezekiel 38 and 39 prophesy two separate battles. this is rejected by the majority of Biblical commentators who feel that chapter 39 is a recapitulation of Chapter 38. Other theologians contend that the events of 38 and 39 were fulfilled in the 2nd Century BC and that John is merely using the language of Ezekiel to describe entirely different events


Neither of these solutions address the problem in a satisfactory manner. It seems to be more in keeping with scripture to assume a natural and consistent relationship between the events of Ezekiel 38-39 and the events of Revelation 19-20. Furthermore, it seems difficult to understand why Ezekiel would describe the same battle twice.


There is also the practical problem of logistics in supposing that these are two separate battles. In the account of the battle in Rev. 19:11-21, the victory of Christ over the Beast and His armies is conclusive. The idea of "survivors" of this conflict who again challenge the Lamb and His people seems to fly in the face of the totality of the defeat and evidence of no survivors (Rev. 19:21). Then there is the question of nations again rising up after a thousand-year literal reign of Christ. Presumably these are the descendents of the Christians who had triumphed with Christ over the beast. Since the numbers of the nations that will gather to fight against the Saints are described as being "like the sand of the seashore" (Rev. 20:8) which is a biblical way of saying "innumerable" (see Gen. 22:17, 32:12, & 41:49) this scenario presupposes a time of massive apostasy occurring during the very period when Satan is imprisoned and cannot deceive the nations (Rev. 22:3) and Christ is ruling.


In the face of these logistical acrobatics, it would seem to be more likely that both Revelation 19:17-21 and Revelation 20:7-10 are alluding to the same final battle. So, following the lead of Ezekiel chapters 38 and 39, John has given us a description of the same battle twice with attention given to different details in each chapter.

The "thousand years" mentioned in Revelation 20:7 then, cannot be a literal period of one thousand years following the events described in chapter 19, but rather are a symbolic reference to the church age during which the great commission is fulfilled. Once this age comes to a close, we are to expect the Parousia (Rev. 19:11), the final battle between Christ and his people and the powers of antichrist and those they have deceived (Rev. 19:17-21, Rev. 20:7-10) and the final judgment (Rev. 20:11-15).

These are all events that happen simultaneously at the second advent.


Chapters 38 and 39 of Ezekiel describe a final cataclysmic battle between Gog and his armies and the Lord that results in the utter devastation of all who oppose the Lord and his people Israel. Revelation 19:17-21

This is the progressive unfolding of revelation, "what is in the old concealed, is in the new revealed." It was not until the writing of the book of Revelation many hundreds of years later, that it became evident exactly what these chapters in Ezekiel where pointing towards. By using language directly taken from these chapters in his narratives of the final battle between Christ and the antichrist, the Apostle John makes it clear that the Battle in Ezekiel would involve more than just the human enemies of Israel. Ezekiel chapters 38 and 39 are a description of the final defeat of the antichrist and his followers from all the nations of the earth, who, in attacking the "camp of the saints and the beloved city" (Rev. 20:9), who meet their doom in the "mountains of Israel" (Ezek. 39:4). Both of these passages are references to Mt. Zion, the dwelling place of God in the Old Testament.


John has revealed to us that Ezekiel 38 and 39 are, in fact, the narrative of the last battle of the Beast, Satan’s pawn. Gog is the great pretender who exalts himself and tries to take the crown of Christ, and destroy the bride of the Lamb. In that final battle, the false Christ, Gog, comes from his dwelling place, "Magog" (Ezek. 38:2) the false Zion of the North, gathering by lies and deceit his false church from the "four corners of the earth" (Rev. 20:8). Instead of the glory he desires, like Sodom, his inheritance is not the kingdom (Matthew 25:34), but rather fire. Fire that comes from heaven to consume his armies (Ezek. 38:22; 39:6, Rev. 20:9) and the fire of eternal punishment in Hell (Rev. 19:20, Rev. 20:9). This is the final doom of Gog and Magog.

First of all, there is no mention of "Rosh" in Ezekiel 38 and 39 in the King James Bible.
 "Gog" is another name for "the devil". The nations and people listed under Gog in Ezekiel 38 are those of the HORN OF AFRICA.

Ezekiel describes the people of Gog flowing into the land of the Europeans in the latter years, and he says that when God comes to judge them He's going to leave but a "sixth" of them.  That "sixth" is a direct reference to the beast of Rev.13, and to the numbers 600, 60, and 6.

The people of Gog were the same  "ten horns" which Daniel and John saw in their visions of the end. And, they are the same people described as "the son of perdition" and "the man of sin" which Paul refers to in 11Thes.2.

Quite simply, the scriptures tell us that before the Lord comes back to this earth, a mighty Christian nation (described as Babylon in Rev.) must first fall away from Christ and exalt in His stead, the son of perdition; the people of Gog and of Africa.

African Americans have demonstrated that they are the ten horns; the people of Gog; the son of perdition.  And, America has demonstrated that it is that nation called Babylon which is worshipping them.

[Keith]

Not all african americans are the ten horns. One of the finest christian men I have ever known is african american, and my friend. Portier, you use too many generalizations when you speak of african americans. I still can't convince myself you are not a racist.

[roamer_1]

Hi Portier,

"Gog" is another name for "the devil".

Where is it written?

The nations and people listed under Gog in Ezekiel 38 are those of the HORN OF AFRICA.

That is not true- SOME of the people listed are of the horn of Africa... Meshech, Tubal, and Togmarah are certainly nations/people north of Israel, as well as the people of Magog and Gomer, though it is harder to pin them down.

Any map of ancient times will prove me right in this, and the early writers all put these people above the borders of Syria, quite as I describe:

Togmarah is the region of northern Turkey wherein the ancient cities of Mechesh and Tubal can be found.
Magog was historically known to be north of Assyria, spanning the Slavic nations therein, lapping somewhat into present day Turkey. Gomer and "all his bands"were also north of Assyria, though some would put them west by north of the black sea, in present day Germany, following the northern coast of the Black Sea.

These are tribes of Japheth (white or asiatic, certainly not black), not tribes of Ham:

1Ch 1:5  The sons of Japheth; Gomer, and Magog, and Madai, and Javan, and Tubal, and Meshech, and Tiras.
1Ch 1:6  And the sons of Gomer; Ashchenaz, and Riphath, and Togarmah.
1Ch 1:7  And the sons of Javan; Elishah, and Tarshish, Kittim, and Dodanim.


Putting these together with Persia, and the nations described from the Horn of Africa, adding to it the prophecy that he (the beast) would wax great to the east and the south, and toward the "beautiful land" (Israel), one can see the hordes of Muhammad fit this most perfectly, with the possibility of alignment with Russia and/or Germany. Considering the facts on the ground, to claim otherwise would be rather silly.

To hang the name "Sons of Satan" on black folks, I am afraid you need to prove how these Sons of Japheth became black too (which they are not).

Your words do a disservice to great Christian nations of black peoples, to the Christian Moors which helped Europe in times of war with Islam in the past, and to the great black heritages of Christianity the world over, and especially in the USA.

-Bruce

[Ferg]

Hi Bruce,

Good challenging post (as always)!

Hi Ferg,

You have some interesting ideas, but I have a few questions about them.

Hi there my dear brother! Sorry it has taken me so long to reply...this is the thread that got away.

(It's only when your name sake (roamer - aka Bruce 2) posted the other day, that I realised I owed you an answer...

So sorry (PM me with a nudge next time bro) !!!

If Ezekiel 38-39 is actually the battle mentioned in Rev 20, then why would Israel need to burn weapons for seven years as fuel, as is mentioned in Ezekiel?

If it is the last battle, and the last resurrection is about to take place, why would Israel need to bury the bodies for seven months?

It seems like God destroys the heavens and the earth with fire just after the Rev 20 battle and creates a new heavens and a new earth.  If this is true, why would Israel need to bury dead, employ people to search for dead bodies for years, and use fuel? 

Ezekiel 39:

14 And they shall sever out men of continual employment, passing through the land to bury with the passengers those that remain upon the face of the earth, to cleanse it: after the end of seven months shall they search.

15 And the passengers that pass through the land, when any seeth a man's bone, then shall he set up a sign by it, till the buriers have buried it in the valley of Hamongog.

16 And also the name of the city shall be Hamonah. Thus shall they cleanse the land.

God even says that people who pass by the graves will have their noses stopped up.  I take this to mean that there will be a great stench coming from that area.  Do you think this will be in the new earth?

No. Initially, I was looking at the similarities (which seem strong) but there are many unanswered questions which I have not yet found the answers to. I need to keep studying this.

Ezekiel 39:

11 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will give unto Gog a place there of graves in Israel, the valley of the passengers on the east of the sea: and it shall stop the noses of the passengers: and there shall they bury Gog and all his multitude: and they shall call it The valley of Hamongog.


There are many other questions that come up when I compare the two battles, and I currently believe the battle of Magog in Ezekiel 38-39 matches more closely with the seals and the first trumpet:

Ezekiel 38:

18 And it shall come to pass at the same time when Gog shall come against the land of Israel, saith the Lord GOD, that my fury shall come up in my face.

19 For in my jealousy and in the fire of my wrath have I spoken, Surely in that day there shall be a great shaking in the land of Israel; (seal six earthquake)

20 So that the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the heaven, and the beasts of the field, and all creeping things that creep upon the earth, and all the men that are upon the face of the earth, shall shake at my presence, and the mountains shall be thrown down, and the steep places shall fall, and every wall shall fall to the ground. (seal six earthquake)

21 And I will call for a sword against him throughout all my mountains, saith the Lord GOD: every man's sword shall be against his brother. (seal two and four-sword)

22 And I will plead against him with pestilence (seal four) and with blood (first trumpet); and I will rain upon him, and upon his bands, and upon the many people that are with him, an overflowing rain, and great hailstones, fire, and brimstone. (first trumpet)

Ezekiel 39:

4 Thou shalt fall upon the mountains of Israel, thou, and all thy bands, and the people that is with thee: I will give thee unto the ravenous birds of every sort, and to the beasts of the field to be devoured. (seal four-beasts of the earth)

5 Thou shalt fall upon the open field: for I have spoken it, saith the Lord GOD.

6 And I will send a fire on Magog, and among them that dwell carelessly in the isles: and they shall know that I am the LORD. (first trumpet)

We also see during the sixth seal that the nations recognize that the Day of the Lord has come and cry out:

Revelation 6:

15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

I see where you are coming from, but in regard to the first seal, I believe that it represents the victorious power of the preaching of the gospel. The first horse is described as white. In Scripture white is a symbol of purity, "though your sin be as scarlet they shall be as white as snow," Isa. 1:18. The saints, victoriously gathered in heaven, wear white robes, Rev. 7:9 and Rev. 19:11. Besides it is added in the text itself that the rider receives a crown, the symbol of victory and he is sent forth, "Conquering and to conquer," repeated for emphasis. The white horse therefore represents the victorious power of the preaching of the gospel which alone is able to purify the hearts of men and bring the entire church into heavenly perfection.

Christ gathers His own out of the world through the sanctifying power of His Spirit and Word. It is the victory of the truth over the lie, of the holy will of God over the moral depravity of men. This truth and holiness is applied to the hearts of the elected through the power of the preaching of the gospel. Notice emphatically, that the power is under the direction of Christ! He sends His Word to all those for whom He died on the cross and therefore surely realizes the eternal good pleasure of His Father in heaven. Consider Acts 2:47, "The Lord added daily such as should be saved." Acts 16:6, "...forbidden by the Holy Ghost to preach the word in Asia." Also Acts 13:48, "As many as were ordained to eternal life believed."

I believe that this horse has been riding since the cross, and continues to ride with power and glory till the last elect shall be gathered within the church.

This also matches up well with the Ezekiel passage, where the people recognize that God is involved. I believe that the anti-christ and Satan will be able to use this to their own advantage and deceive the world.  If the Magog war happens at the beginning of the tribulation, the remaining people will be yelling for peace and safety after a quarter of the world just died.  The false religions will probably say that God is angry at all the conflicts and wants the world to unite in peace and harmony, and unite into a single religion.

Well, as you know, I believe that there is no distinct seven year tribulation, but that Christians have been in tribulation since the first martyr (Stephen), though I do think that this tribulation will escalate (again) toward the end.

I currently think that it is possible based on verses I have read, that the whole world will see Christ come in the air during the sixth seal.  I do believe in a rapture, but believe that our bodies might remain behind.  If this is the case, then when the world sees God in the air, they will see Him bring great judgements to the world, including what they will perceive as God destroying all the Christians.  If this is the case, then how easy would it be for the anti-christ to explain away what has just happened?  How easy would it be to prove that fundamental Christianity is not the way to go?  Fundamental Christians would be too stubborn to accept unity with the other religions, so they had to go.

These are just possibilities.  There are many verses that seem to indicate that our bodies may remain behind, and if that is the case, then the rapture would seem to be another judgement on man.  I think that there is a good possibility that the rapture may coincide with the great earthquake that shakes the whole world during seal six.  Seal six also is where the nations cry that the Day of the Lord has come.  I believe this is the start of the seven year tribulation period.  The riders of the first four seals will ride throughout the tribulation period dealing their damage, but they may deal most of the damage during the Magog war.

I personally believe that the first six seals are open bro, and that the sixth is still in progression. It may be observed that those interpreters who take the seals as being strictly successive, so that the one is not opened before the preceding one has been finished, must run into serious difficulty as soon as they come to the interpretation of the seventh seal. It cannot be denied that the sixth seal already took us to the very eve of the final judgment, to the end of time. For it is evident that it meant nothing less than that the entire physical universe was subjected to tremendous changes which immediately precede the coming of the Lord. Now for those who interpret the seals as strictly successive this sixth seal in its fullest realization places us before the very day of judgment.

But how then can the seventh seal picture events which merely follow the things revealed in the sixth? In the latter seal heaven and earth have already been shaken, the sun has been darkened, and the moon has been changed to blood. How can that which is revealed in connection with the seventh seal still take place if it is supposed to follow in time upon the sixth seal? As we know, this seventh seal is revealed as seven trumpets. And again, the last of these trumpets is dissolved into seven vials, or bowls, of wrath. But the first six of these seven trumpets speak of things which take place on earth, in the physical universe as well as in the world of men. Therefore the seventh seal does
not and cannot presuppose that all that has been revealed in connection with the sixth seal has been finished. There is but one possible explanation. The seals do not present a successive order of events merely, but they overlap. I think we began to discuss this, but I can't remember the thread...can you?

If not, what is your timeline on the seals again?

Be blessed Bruce.
 

[Ferg]

Hiya Ferg,

I am afraid I must stand w/ 4Horses and Witty1 on this issue.

Without regard to the differences (for the moment), I think it would be more interesting to first assault the similarities:

1. Without a doubt, the words "Gog and Magog" form a linkage, though the linkage is not that firm, as no one knows for certain just what "Gog" and "Magog" are.

This is true.

It is interesting to note that Ezekiel is addressed directly to a Chief Prince:

Eze 38:2  Son of man, set thy face against Gog, the land of Magog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal, and prophesy against him,
Eze 38:3  And say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against thee, O Gog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal:

whereas Revelations is directed at the actions of Satan himself:

Rev 20:7  And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
Rev 20:8  And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

A "chief prince" is not a being of this earth. This is not a king He is speaking to. A "chief prince" is a designation for an angel of archangel status, thus Ezekiel is directed to a principality- The archangel class demon who presides over Meshesch and Tubal, whose name is Gog (or so it would seem). This seems to be a difference from Satan himself, who is the king of evil forces.

One might take note of others called "chief princes" by comparison:

Dan 10:13  But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia.

We know that Michael is an archangel, so my thought is that Gog would be his antithesis (an arch-demon) of similar caliber.

2. Raining fire and brimstone, while not to lessen it's severity, seems to be standard fare for Jehovah when He is angry- Again, not to lessen it, but it seems to be one of His favorite weapons, it being included in nearly every campaign the Almighty participates personally in.


3.The marshaling of hordes from the four quarters of the earth (Ezek 38:2-7, 15; 39:4; Rev 20:8);

While similar, The passage in Ezekiel implies a subset of specifically named nations, while Revelations suggests a much broader "worldwide" campaign.

There is a distinct difference as 4H has suggested, in regard to time after the event- One seems to be the very end of time (Armageddon), while the other (Gog/Magog) has much to say about what happens following the event- bringing it much closer in parallel to the other OT final battle scenes starring a character called the "Assyrian" (Isaiah, Zechariah, Joel, Hosea). The aggregate of these stories leave Israel in an idyllic time, with David upon the throne in Jerusalem, Israel united and ministering to a broken world. Here there is a balm in Gilead, and waters flowing from the throne in Jerusalem... the river Jordan having trees with leaves of healing...

Perhaps widening the study to include these other battle scenes would be enlightening.

-Roamer.

Thanks roamer, good points all. I clearly need to study this at greater length (and am doing so), would you like to bring these other battle scenes in?

[Ferg]

First of all, there is no mention of "Rosh" in Ezekiel 38 and 39 in the King James Bible.

Yeah there is. Ro'sh is the same word in the Hebrew for head. See;
http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/words.pl?strongs=07220
 

"Gog" is another name for "the devil". The nations and people listed under Gog in Ezekiel 38 are those of the HORN OF AFRICA.

No it isn't

The Hebrew word 'Gowg' {gohg} (Gog) means mountain.
Gog = "mountain"

1) a Reubenite, son of Shemaiah

2) the prophetic prince of Rosh, Meshech and Tubal, and Magog (Strong's 01463)

Ezekiel describes the people of Gog flowing into the land of the Europeans in the latter years, and he says that when God comes to judge them He's going to leave but a "sixth" of them.  That "sixth" is a direct reference to the beast of Rev.13, and to the numbers 600, 60, and 6.

The people of Gog were the same  "ten horns" which Daniel and John saw in their visions of the end. And, they are the same people described as "the son of perdition" and "the man of sin" which Paul refers to in 11Thes.2.

Quite simply, the scriptures tell us that before the Lord comes back to this earth, a mighty Christian nation (described as Babylon in Rev.) must first fall away from Christ and exalt in His stead, the son of perdition; the people of Gog and of Africa.

African Americans have demonstrated that they are the ten horns; the people of Gog; the son of perdition.  And, America has demonstrated that it is that nation called Babylon which is worshipping them.

Here we go again... :

[Johnny C]

Is Armageddon a literal battlefield or is it a spiritual warfare between good and evil?  If literal then who are the participants?  Are they the armies of satan against the armies of God?  Is it a specific location where all will gather from around the globe or is it a worldwide conflict?  At present I lean toward the spiritual aspect of it and the worldwide stage.  Might it be a time when the saints (all of them) save 144,000, are slain? 

We are given the final plea to come out of Babylon in Rev.18:4.  Lot was given a similar warning immediately before the destruction of his city by fire.  Isaiah mentions that Assyrian again in 27:13.  Ezekiel, in 13:4,5, admonishes us for a lack of preparation and again in 22:30.  Why is this?  Might it have something to do with verses 24 and 26 of the same chapter?  Isaiah offers us a promise but it sounds conditional in 58:12-14.  Nevertheless, the mouth of the Lord hath spoken it...

[Libbybear]

Megeddo is a real valley in Israel, Johnny. I think it was also called the Valley of Jezreel. The last battle, I believe, will be literal as the forces of the beast fight against Jesus and His forces. I dont believe that Ezekiel 38 and 39 is the same battle. I think we may see that one real soon the way things are going in the middle east. I guess the Gog and Magog mentioned in Revelation are parts of the last battle. They must be remnants of the folks in the first Gog and Magog war. I like what Bruce posted about the locations of all the descendants of Meshech and Tubal and Gomer, etc. He sounds correct to me. As for Portier, he still sounds antagonistic toward black people. And some of the finest people in the world are black. They love the Lord as much as anyone else could and God loves them the same. So all I can do for Portier is pray for him that his heart gets softened and his eyes opened to the truth.  Libby

[Ferg]

Is Armageddon a literal battlefield or is it a spiritual warfare between good and evil?  If literal then who are the participants?  Are they the armies of satan against the armies of God?  Is it a specific location where all will gather from around the globe or is it a worldwide conflict? 

It is the time when the last vial is poured out. As the nations are gathered in the winepress of the wrath of God, battling one another to death, the very atmosphere is filled with the wrath of God. The devils, who find their abode in that air, are defeated forever. And nature is angry with terrible convulsions. There are terrific lightnings and thunders and voices. The sun is darkened, and the moon appears blood red. A great and terrible earthquake cracks the earth, so that Babylon is split and destroyed and the cities of the nations are wiped out, - an earthquake as never before, as long as man lived on earth. And to finish all, great hail falls from heaven, making the destruction complete. Every hailstone weighs a talent, that is, approximately one hundred pounds. Just imagine the scene. It is the great day of the wrath of God. All the nations are gathered. They fight and rage, wild with the despair of their forlorn kingdom. They are at each other's throats in fury, filled with the wrath of God.

Darkness prevails. The moon by night looks like blood. Tremendous hailstones begin to fall, crushing them to death. An earthquake destroys their cities. Mountains are rooted out of their place. The very surface of the earth is changing. Islands flee away. And in the midst of this universal destruction, from which no one shall escape, are heard the cursings and blasphemies of a wicked race, rebellious to the very last. No indeed, there is no repentance except through the grace of God. God is fully justified in this last scene of human history. Sin is rebellion, hatred against the God of heaven!

Phew!

[Johnny C]

Thus the state of ruin in which I believe the earth will lie, desolate, for a thousand years...