Image of Daniel 2

[milleradam37]

fm,
i appreciate your insight. i was just having a discussion with one of my old freinds(he's a pre-mill and pre-triber) about this very thing, he was still trying to maintain that europe would be united under one leader,and i suppose his premise comes from the fact of EU and their new currency, and so on, but i tried to point out also that many have tried to unite the old roman empire(hitler, napoleon, etc) but without success, and i believe it is all tied to Daniel when it says they will not cleave to one another.
your view sounds similar to mine, but i was curious, how many 'beasts' do you think there are in Rev?

[ForceMajuere]

fm,
i appreciate your insight. i was just having a discussion with one of my old freinds(he's a pre-mill and pre-triber) about this very thing, he was still trying to maintain that europe would be united under one leader,and i suppose his premise comes from the fact of EU and their new currency, and so on, but i tried to point out also that many have tried to unite the old roman empire(hitler, napoleon, etc) but without success, and i believe it is all tied to Daniel when it says they will not cleave to one another.
your view sounds similar to mine, but i was curious, how many 'beasts' do you think there are in Rev?

2.

The 'beast' of the sea(people, nations, tongues) which has 7 heads and 10 horns,

and, the beast of the earth, which 'looks' like a lamb but speaks like a dragon, also known as the false prophet.

I don't refer to the 4 living creatures before the Throne of God as 'beasts', and we are looking at the same 'beast of the sea' in Rev. 13:1 that we see in Rev. 12:3.

There are plagues describing 'beasts', but I call them a plague rather than a beast.

Sincerely,
FM 

[DaDad]

Did any one is this forum suggest an alternate reason for the 4,3,5,2,1?
Did any one perform the thought experiment for 7:11-12?
Did any one suggest that the UN Permanent Membership on the Security Council was incorrect?
Did any one suggest that the Seven world empires was wrong?

With Best Regards,
DaDad

1) Yes-It doesn't matter. What DaDad is focusing on is the 'order' of the destruction of the Statue of Nebuchadnezzer and implicit in his question is that the 'values' assigned(gold, silver, brass, iron, clay) are deliberately re-assigned their order of destruction so as to imply another meaning of which he furthur fathoms as regarding our geopolitical situation today.

2) As to the 5=4 arguement: the point of extrapolation becomes the 'clay' element which doesn't correspond to a 'beast' of Daniel, so therefore DaDad is free to assign a current 'geo-political' alignment based on the exclusion of this element.  --  Not so.

3) He is correct in as far as Daniel isn't shown the 'beast' that follows Rome, which is what John saw(Rev. 17:10),"And there are seven kings, five are fallen, and one is(Rome), and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue  a short space."


4) I believe that God didn't reveal this 'kingdom' to him because of the confusion in describing it; anyway, what God did tell him about was the 4th beast which was Rome, and the 10 'horns' which were colonies of Rome that became independant after the fall of Rome. They 'grow' out of the head of the 4th beast, meaning that they were from the direct influence of Rome.


5) Since we are talking about a Spiritual Kingdom, admittance(or non-admittance) to the Security Coucil is immaterial; to 'hypothesize' that one or the other nation is contained in the 'Statue' or the 'horns' based on a geo-political reading of today's world has no bearing.

6) The one exception is the US, and I will close for now.

Sincerely,
FM    

Hi ForceMajuere,
Please allow me to provide the following observations to each of your points (slightly renumbered per above):

1. deliberately re-assigned their order of destruction so as to imply another meaning of which he furthur fathoms as regarding our geopolitical situation today.
It's interesting that you assert my error, but fail to provide an alternate premise to the 4,3,5,2,1. Any objective person should pause at this quirk in your doctrine!

2. As to the 5=4 arguement: the point of extrapolation becomes the 'clay' element which doesn't correspond to a 'beast' of Daniel
I believe if you evaluate 2:41 you should find: "this will be a divided kingdom". Also, I believe if you consider the modern political climate, you should find a 3-wonder-power era, with a fourth one-world-government on the horizon.

3. "Daniel isn't shown the 'beast' that follows Rome, which is what John saw (Rev. 17:10),"And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.  11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition."

Actually, although Daniel doesn't itemize them, I would propose that he not only recognized them as such, but clarified the Rev. 17 "eighth that was and is not" as an eleventh horn/king -- that was and is not. (Ref. 7:20 "...the other horn that came up..."; & 7:24 "...After them another king will arise...")

4a) I believe that God didn't reveal this 'kingdom' to him because of the confusion in describing it; .
See #3.

4b) anyway, what God did tell him about was the 4th beast which was Rome, and the 10 'horns' which were colonies of Rome that became independant after the fall of Rome. They 'grow' out of the head of the 4th beast, meaning that they were from the direct influence of Rome.
This is so fanciful, I really don't know where to begin. Scripture and history both fail to support the above...

5) Since we are talking about a Spiritual Kingdom, admittance(or non-admittance) to the Security Coucil is immaterial; to 'hypothesize' that one or the other nation is contained in the 'Statue' or the 'horns' based on a geo-political reading of today's world has no bearing.
Please allow me to suggest that if prophecies are simply word in a book, then FM may be correct. However, if they are pictures into the future, then certainly one could observe that the EU has low (read -impossible-) probability, and the UN has high (read -absolute-)probability.

6) The one exception is the US, and I will close for now.
Right now one should ask why the US can be part of the equation, but Russia, China, U.K., France, Germany, Japan, Brazil, Nigeria, and India are thrown out. -- Puzzling indeed...

Hope this helps,
DaDad

PS I wish someone would perform the thought experiment for 7:11-12.

[milleradam37]

here are mine:
horse shaped locusts Rev 9
Abaddon (king of the locusts) Rev 9
beast of the bottomless pit(no description of horns or heads) Rev 11
great red dragon with seven crowned heads and ten horns Rev 12
beast with seven heads and ten crowned horns Rev 13:1
lamb-like beast with 2 horns Rev 13:11
image of the beast Rev 13:15
the harlot that rides the beast Rev 17
scarlet colored beast with 7 heads and 10 horns(no crowns) Rev 17:3

[Johnny C]

I don't have these texts underlined in my bible therefore I can only guess.  But, I'm willing to give it a shot...  

This little horn speaks great things against the Most High.  Even thinks to change times and laws.  BECAUSE of this all who swallow his words hook, line and sinker are given over to destruction.  Based on a comparison with what the Revelator has to say about it, I'd also guess the remaining rebellious have to endure the wrath of God in the form of the plagues to be poured out by the 7 angels.  I'd guess they will seek death and death will flee from them.  

PS:  I'm not thinking here, I'm only guessing.  Being as these passages are not underlined in my bible indicates they must not really exist anyway...

[ForceMajuere]

Hi ForceMajuere,
Please allow me to provide the following observations to each of your points (slightly renumbered per above):

1. deliberately re-assigned their order of destruction so as to imply another meaning of which he furthur fathoms as regarding our geopolitical situation today.
It's interesting that you assert my error, but fail to provide an alternate premise to the 4,3,5,2,1. Any objective person should pause at this quirk in your doctrine!

2. As to the 5=4 arguement: the point of extrapolation becomes the 'clay' element which doesn't correspond to a 'beast' of Daniel
I believe if you evaluate 2:41 you should find: "this will be a divided kingdom". Also, I believe if you consider the modern political climate, you should find a 3-wonder-power era, with a fourth one-world-government on the horizon.

3. "Daniel isn't shown the 'beast' that follows Rome, which is what John saw (Rev. 17:10),"And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.  11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition."

Actually, although Daniel doesn't itemize them, I would propose that he not only recognized them as such, but clarified the Rev. 17 "eighth that was and is not" as an eleventh horn/king -- that was and is not. (Ref. 7:20 "...the other horn that came up..."; & 7:24 "...After them another king will arise...")

4a) I believe that God didn't reveal this 'kingdom' to him because of the confusion in describing it; .
See #3.

4b) anyway, what God did tell him about was the 4th beast which was Rome, and the 10 'horns' which were colonies of Rome that became independant after the fall of Rome. They 'grow' out of the head of the 4th beast, meaning that they were from the direct influence of Rome.
This is so fanciful, I really don't know where to begin. Scripture and history both fail to support the above...

5) Since we are talking about a Spiritual Kingdom, admittance(or non-admittance) to the Security Coucil is immaterial; to 'hypothesize' that one or the other nation is contained in the 'Statue' or the 'horns' based on a geo-political reading of today's world has no bearing.
Please allow me to suggest that if prophecies are simply word in a book, then FM may be correct. However, if they are pictures into the future, then certainly one could observe that the EU has low (read -impossible-) probability, and the UN has high (read -absolute-)probability.

6) The one exception is the US, and I will close for now.
Right now one should ask why the US can be part of the equation, but Russia, China, U.K., France, Germany, Japan, Brazil, Nigeria, and India are thrown out. -- Puzzling indeed...

Hope this helps,
DaDad

PS I wish someone would perform the thought experiment for 7:11-12.

1) Consider your 4,3,5,2,1 answered. As I previously stated, the rock smashes the feet(particularly the toes). Therefore, the dust particle order doesn't matter-they are all blown away in the wind, anyway. To 'create' a meaning where none existed is just as erroneous as mis-interpreting a meaning.

2) You admit you are 'extrapolating' a meaning based on the current geopolitical situation. Therefore, you are 'using' Scripture to justify your interpretation. Let scripture(under the Revelation of the Holy Spirit) give you the meaning-assigning one just leads to more confusion.

3) "The 'beast' that was and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth to perdition."(Rev. 17:11)

Remember, (Rev. 13:2) "And the beast which I saw is like unto a leopard".

Leopard=Greek Kingdom(s)=1Head(Alex. the Great)+4Heads(4 Generals that took over)=5Heads

Was not qualifies because the Greek Kingdom was not during the time of John.

Is qualifies because the beast is like unto a leopard.(Greek)

Beast=Greek Kingdom(not physically, but spiritually). We are seeing a vision, not walking down the mall, looking for a place to shop.

Notice: It doesn't say,"The beast with 8 heads and 11 horns". Why?
 
Because the 'beast' has 7 heads and 10 horns, that's the picture God wants us to see. "Is the eighth and of the seven"is a comparative picture-God could have said,"The beast with eight heads", but instead He tells us that the 10 Horns act in unison, just like 'a' head. How do we know?

"These have one mind, and shall give their power and stregnth to the beast."(Rev. 17:13)

The picture of the 'little horn' is different, but apply the same principle; God said a 'beast' with 7Heads and 10 horns, not a 'beast' with 7Heads and 11horns. He wants us to retain a picture of 10, not 11. He is showing us truth, not giving us coordinates for a bombing run.

But in Daniel 7:24, He tells us,"And the 10 horns out of this kingdom(Rome) are 10 kings that shall arise: and another shall arise after them: and he shall be diverse from the first, and shall subdue 3 kings."

He didn't say,"and will grow out Rome-the little horn is diverse, or different from the first 10 horns.

Britain, France, and Spain all owe their existance to Rome-they were Roman colonies. This is a historical fact-do you care to argue?

The image of the 'little horn' horn is that it is simular in nature to the first 10, since it 'rises up' after them in the same sentance. That means it isn't China, India, Pago-Pago, etc.; these did not 'arise' from among them(Dan. 7:8).

But it is 'diverse' from the others and interacts with them, plucking three of them by the roots, or as Dan. 7:24 says,"subduing them".

You'll notice the 3 horns don't go away, they are still part of the 7Head/10Horn beast. The 'little horn' doesn't appear on this beast, and yet it 'subdues' 3 horns. How?

The United States of America satisfies this requirement.

This country was 1st the domain of the 3 Horns(England, France, and Spain) and through conquest and aquisition came into it's own. It was the 1st colony of the original Roman colonies, therefore it doesn't appear on the head of the 4th beast of Daniel. It's called 'little' because our time in history is relatively brief, and up to the 20th century our role has been relatively insignificant in relation to the other 'horns'.

It is diverse because it is not a kingdom, from it's inception it has been a democracy-a word that was not in Daniel's vocabulary when it was described to him.

This 'kingdom' has eyes like a man, and it is so; the 'spirits of man' rule this nation and determine it's course on election day, unlike any other kingdom. It is also a composite of all the other kingdoms; there is no 'one race' or nationality that determines this nation, rather, every nationality of the world is represented here.

I will leave you to understand a "mouth that speaks great things".

Sincerely,
FM

[DaDad]

Hi ForceMajuere,
Please allow me to provide the following observations to each of your points (slightly renumbered per above):

1. deliberately re-assigned their order of destruction so as to imply another meaning of which he furthur fathoms as regarding our geopolitical situation today.
It's interesting that you assert my error, but fail to provide an alternate premise to the 4,3,5,2,1. Any objective person should pause at this quirk in your doctrine!

2. As to the 5=4 arguement: the point of extrapolation becomes the 'clay' element which doesn't correspond to a 'beast' of Daniel
I believe if you evaluate 2:41 you should find: "this will be a divided kingdom". Also, I believe if you consider the modern political climate, you should find a 3-wonder-power era, with a fourth one-world-government on the horizon.

3. "Daniel isn't shown the 'beast' that follows Rome, which is what John saw (Rev. 17:10),"And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.  11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition."

Actually, although Daniel doesn't itemize them, I would propose that he not only recognized them as such, but clarified the Rev. 17 "eighth that was and is not" as an eleventh horn/king -- that was and is not. (Ref. 7:20 "...the other horn that came up..."; & 7:24 "...After them another king will arise...")

4a) I believe that God didn't reveal this 'kingdom' to him because of the confusion in describing it; .
See #3.

4b) anyway, what God did tell him about was the 4th beast which was Rome, and the 10 'horns' which were colonies of Rome that became independant after the fall of Rome. They 'grow' out of the head of the 4th beast, meaning that they were from the direct influence of Rome.
This is so fanciful, I really don't know where to begin. Scripture and history both fail to support the above...

5) Since we are talking about a Spiritual Kingdom, admittance(or non-admittance) to the Security Coucil is immaterial; to 'hypothesize' that one or the other nation is contained in the 'Statue' or the 'horns' based on a geo-political reading of today's world has no bearing.
Please allow me to suggest that if prophecies are simply word in a book, then FM may be correct. However, if they are pictures into the future, then certainly one could observe that the EU has low (read -impossible-) probability, and the UN has high (read -absolute-)probability.

6) The one exception is the US, and I will close for now.
Right now one should ask why the US can be part of the equation, but Russia, China, U.K., France, Germany, Japan, Brazil, Nigeria, and India are thrown out. -- Puzzling indeed...

Hope this helps,
DaDad

PS I wish someone would perform the thought experiment for 7:11-12.

1) Consider your 4,3,5,2,1 answered. As I previously stated, the rock smashes the feet(particularly the toes). Therefore, the dust particle order doesn't matter-they are all blown away in the wind, anyway. To 'create' a meaning where none existed is just as erroneous as mis-interpreting a meaning.

2) You admit you are 'extrapolating' a meaning based on the current geopolitical situation. Therefore, you are 'using' Scripture to justify your interpretation. Let scripture(under the Revelation of the Holy Spirit) give you the meaning-assigning one just leads to more confusion.

3) "The 'beast' that was and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth to perdition."(Rev. 17:11)

Remember, (Rev. 13:2) "And the beast which I saw is like unto a leopard".

Leopard=Greek Kingdom(s)=1Head(Alex. the Great)+4Heads(4 Generals that took over)=5Heads

Was not qualifies because the Greek Kingdom was not during the time of John.

Is qualifies because the beast is like unto a leopard.(Greek)

Beast=Greek Kingdom(not physically, but spiritually). We are seeing a vision, not walking down the mall, looking for a place to shop.

Notice: It doesn't say,"The beast with 8 heads and 11 horns". Why?
 
Because the 'beast' has 7 heads and 10 horns, that's the picture God wants us to see. "Is the eighth and of the seven"is a comparative picture-God could have said,"The beast with eight heads", but instead He tells us that the 10 Horns act in unison, just like 'a' head. How do we know?

"These have one mind, and shall give their power and stregnth to the beast."(Rev. 17:13)

The picture of the 'little horn' is different, but apply the same principle; God said a 'beast' with 7Heads and 10 horns, not a 'beast' with 7Heads and 11horns. He wants us to retain a picture of 10, not 11. He is showing us truth, not giving us coordinates for a bombing run.

But in Daniel 7:24, He tells us,"And the 10 horns out of this kingdom(Rome) are 10 kings that shall arise: and another shall arise after them: and he shall be diverse from the first, and shall subdue 3 kings."

He didn't say,"and will grow out Rome-the little horn is diverse, or different from the first 10 horns.

Britain, France, and Spain all owe their existance to Rome-they were Roman colonies. This is a historical fact-do you care to argue?

The image of the 'little horn' horn is that it is simular in nature to the first 10, since it 'rises up' after them in the same sentance. That means it isn't China, India, Pago-Pago, etc.; these did not 'arise' from among them(Dan. 7:8).

But it is 'diverse' from the others and interacts with them, plucking three of them by the roots, or as Dan. 7:24 says,"subduing them".

You'll notice the 3 horns don't go away, they are still part of the 7Head/10Horn beast. The 'little horn' doesn't appear on this beast, and yet it 'subdues' 3 horns. How?

The United States of America satisfies this requirement.

This country was 1st the domain of the 3 Horns(England, France, and Spain) and through conquest and aquisition came into it's own. It was the 1st colony of the original Roman colonies, therefore it doesn't appear on the head of the 4th beast of Daniel. It's called 'little' because our time in history is relatively brief, and up to the 20th century our role has been relatively insignificant in relation to the other 'horns'.

It is diverse because it is not a kingdom, from it's inception it has been a democracy-a word that was not in Daniel's vocabulary when it was described to him.

This 'kingdom' has eyes like a man, and it is so; the 'spirits of man' rule this nation and determine it's course on election day, unlike any other kingdom. It is also a composite of all the other kingdoms; there is no 'one race' or nationality that determines this nation, rather, every nationality of the world is represented here.

I will leave you to understand a "mouth that speaks great things".

Sincerely,
FM

Hi ForceMajuere,
It appears that your logic is absent for some, and contradictory for others.

1) Consider your 4,3,5,2,1 answered.
I can consider that the sun has quit shining, but that doesn't make it so. Neither have you answered the 4,3,5,2,1.

2) you are 'extrapolating' a meaning based on the current geopolitical situation.
Why is it that world history doesn't apply for the 1900s, but apparently applies for the 1800s: This country was 1st the domain of the 3 Horns(England, France, and Spain) and through conquest and aquisition came into it's own. 

3) Remember, (Rev. 13:2) "And the beast which I saw is like unto a leopard".
This is FALSE. You have only provided 1/3 of the truth, and by implication, have misrepresented the fact that this "beast" has THREE components, which are the concurrent 3-wonder-powers, as represented by the FOURTH one-world-government.

4) Britain, France, and Spain all owe their existance to Rome-they were Roman colonies. This is a historical fact-do you care to argue?
Yes I do chose to argue with your point. -- Nearly ALL government in the world today have a representative form of government which is based upon the ROMAN Republic. To select an arbritrary three, misrepresents that truth.

5) it is not a kingdom,
I really don't think that parsing words benefits this discussion. If you don't want scripture to refer to a President/Prime-Minister/Chancellor/etc., as a "king", then I really don't think I can solve that problem.
So too for nations, empires, and "kingdoms"...


I will leave you to answer 4,3,5,2,1...

With Best Regards,
DaDad

[DaDad]

I don't have these texts underlined in my bible therefore I can only guess.  But, I'm willing to give it a shot...  

This little horn speaks great things against the Most High.  Even thinks to change times and laws.  BECAUSE of this all who swallow his words hook, line and sinker are given over to destruction.  Based on a comparison with what the Revelator has to say about it, I'd also guess the remaining rebellious have to endure the wrath of God in the form of the plagues to be poured out by the 7 angels.  I'd guess they will seek death and death will flee from them.  

PS:  I'm not thinking here, I'm only guessing.  Being as these passages are not underlined in my bible indicates they must not really exist anyway...

Hi Johnny C,
I'm not thinking here
If you use a "thinking cap", please select the short flat one, not the tall pointy one.
Thanks,
DaDad

[Johnny C]

Well, I will admit, my bible has remained opened to Daniel 7:11,12 since I stumbled across your post.  I'm still "thinking" about it...

[DaDad]

Well, I will admit, my bible has remained opened to Daniel 7:11,12 since I stumbled across your post.  I'm still "thinking" about it...

Hi Johnny C,
Sometimes it takes "reading" to start off with...
DaDad

[Johnny C]

So, Lady Liberty pays homage to the beast by setting up an image to it.  (Not that this hasn't already been long accomplished).  At some point this image to the beast comes to a life of it's own.  When it takes upon itself to exercise it's power, the nations quickly follow suit.  (Probably resulting from some sort of terror threat, worldwide economic collapse, or national emergency of some sort).  Something terrible enough to incite fear in the hearts of the masses. 

"People" have already demonstrated they are more than willing to give up their freedom in exchange for "security". 

OK.  I've put on my "short, flat" cap.  Now what?..

[DaDad]

So, Lady Liberty pays homage to the beast by setting up an image to it.  (Not that this hasn't already been long accomplished).  At some point this image to the beast comes to a life of it's own.  When it takes upon itself to exercise it's power, the nations quickly follow suit.  (Probably resulting from some sort of terror threat, worldwide economic collapse, or national emergency of some sort).  Something terrible enough to incite fear in the hearts of the masses. 

"People" have already demonstrated they are more than willing to give up their freedom in exchange for "security". 

OK.  I've put on my "short, flat" cap.  Now what?..

Hi Johnny C,
Can you check you closet one more time? We're looking for an even shorter hat.

Daniel 7:8 suggests that all 3-wonder-powers will give their sovereignty to this fourth. Certainly, if one of these wonder-powers were to pick a fight with a particular middle eastern country over their nuclear program, then circumstance could prevail where the one-world-government candidate might step up and assume the mantle which is preserved for it. The world will clamor for promised stability, including the five current and five nominated Permanent Members to the Security Council, and as you suggest, this "security" won't be worth the price.

But also, please be aware that the image has it's own characteristics, which I haven't seen properly associated as scripture might portend.

With Best Regards,
DaDad

[Johnny C]

It has been said that America is the "second Israel".  This, of course, is not biblical but, as goes this nation, so goes the world, right?..  Might there be some association with the ecology and a united religious movement of some sort?  That's just for starters.  To "break the ice" so to speak... 

Are you talking about the flat cap with the tassles?..

[DaDad]

It has been said that America is the "second Israel".  This, of course, is not biblical but, as goes this nation, so goes the world, right?..  Might there be some association with the ecology and a united religious movement of some sort?  That's just for starters.  To "break the ice" so to speak... 

Are you talking about the flat cap with the tassles?..

It has been said that America is the "second Israel".  This, of course, is not biblical but, as goes this nation, so goes the world, right?..  Might there be some association with the ecology and a united religious movement of some sort?  That's just for starters.  To "break the ice" so to speak... 

Are you talking about the flat cap with the tassles?..

Hi Johnny C,
If you have one or two with a tassel, chose the one without the H.S. colors.

Some might expect great and monumental decisions to be motivated by great and monumental circumstances. As such, I wouldn't expect green-house-gasses, or some religious theme to provide that impetuous.

And although we are at the center of our own universe, others in peer countries may not agree. Thus, three.

With Best Regards,
DaDad

[Johnny C]

Being as I misspelled "tassel" above, I will admit to having only one color.  So, I have to do the best I can with the limited knowledge I have.  I have a blue cap as well but I lost the tassel somewhere.  Wait a minute, I never got the tassel...

Might Revelation 19:20,21, tie into the texts in question here?  Might not a "religious theme" be a precurser to these events?  And yes, Galatians 3:29 suggests that God's people are Abraham's seed.  Not just Americans...

As for you and I, we, with Daniel, will stand in our lot in the last day, I believe.