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Author Topic: Image of Daniel 2  (Read 11202 times)
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milleradam37
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« on: March 30, 2008, 05:51:06 PM »

Good thinkers, we read that in this passage Daniel basically says, history looks like a statue. i am sure that if you are here that you are already familiar with what the image represents, babylon, persia, greece, and rome. my question is this, do you believe that 'the stone cut out without hands' has hit the image yet? If you believe that, give reasons, and if you dont, please explain as well. I am of the position that most of the prophecies in Revelation have already happened, (the beast of Rev 13 being the roman empire, the second beast like a lamb being the papcy, and the image of the beast being the holy roman empire starting with charlemagne, etc) remeber, that when this stone hits the image it begins the everlasting kingdom of Christ that shall never be destroyed. more to the point, do you believe that this kingdom began when Christ finished His work on the cross, or do you have an opinion that it is yet future? Smiley
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Johnny C
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« Reply #1 on: March 31, 2008, 10:39:55 AM »

Hello and welcome to PT!  I'd say it depicts the second coming.  Therefore I must say, yet future.
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Israelite1972
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« Reply #2 on: March 31, 2008, 10:59:58 AM »

Quote
he point, do you believe that this kingdom began when Christ finished His work on the cross, or do you have an opinion that it is yet future?

Jesus' kingdom does not start until he returns..


"And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years " (Rev 20:4)


That's when the 'Times of the Gentiles' will end.
Luke 21:
20  And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
21   Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
22   For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
23   But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
24   And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the
      times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

And Jesus said..
"Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom" (Matt 16:28)


So when Jesus returns that's when his kingdom will begin..
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"Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.........Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you. (Matthew 5:11-12)
ForceMajuere
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« Reply #3 on: March 31, 2008, 02:04:59 PM »

Good thinkers, we read that in this passage Daniel basically says, history looks like a statue. i am sure that if you are here that you are already familiar with what the image represents, babylon, persia, greece, and rome. my question is this, do you believe that 'the stone cut out without hands' has hit the image yet? If you believe that, give reasons, and if you dont, please explain as well. I am of the position that most of the prophecies in Revelation have already happened, (the beast of Rev 13 being the roman empire, the second beast like a lamb being the papcy, and the image of the beast being the holy roman empire starting with charlemagne, etc) remeber, that when this stone hits the image it begins the everlasting kingdom of Christ that shall never be destroyed. more to the point, do you believe that this kingdom began when Christ finished His work on the cross, or do you have an opinion that it is yet future? Smiley

Simple-the future

Unless you get into a discussion with a group of Covenant Theologians who say that we are 'currently' in the Millenial Reign and Satan is 'bound'(with a tether ball cord), the stone smashes the toes and the entire statue falls to pieces. Earthly governments remain for a season and time but are under the Millenial Reign of Jesus, who will rule the nations with a 'rod of iron' from His physical and spiritual capitol of Jerusalem. His feet will have physically touched the Mount of Olives, since this is the context in which this passage is written, and it will be in the same manner in which He was taken up-meaning that His disciples saw Him raised into heaven, and He will return in the same fashion.

Sincerely,
FM
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Israelite1972
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« Reply #4 on: March 31, 2008, 02:12:01 PM »

That's RIIIGHHTT FM.

Good Post
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"Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.........Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you. (Matthew 5:11-12)
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« Reply #5 on: March 31, 2008, 02:23:35 PM »

This is a must read, the best refute against Preterism, I've ever come across:

“PRETERIST PROPHETIC PHANTASYLAND”

(written in the mid-1990s)

WELCOME to “MACCABEESVILLE” & “JOSEPHUSTOWN”:

Meet Mayors ANTIOCHUS and JOSEPHUS and Councilmen Eusebius, “Saint Jerome,” and the Public Relations Staff of J. Stuart Russell, Max King — and other “Pretie Propagandists.”

“PRETERISM” is the idea that some, or all, Bible “prophecy” may be declared by uninspired men as having been already “fulfilled.” It is by no means “new,” for it originated with the Jews in the “interbiblical” years, prior to the first coming of Christ. It was the “faith” of Josephus in the first century A.D., and it was even held to some degree by a few in the apostolic church age (2 Timothy 2:18).

Some today are “Partial Preterists” and some are “Full Preterists.”

JOHN L. BRAY [”Baptist” evangelist] is an “example” of a “part-pretie,” while MAX KING [”Campbellite” Church of Christ minister] is a “full-pretie.”

Bray and King both pronounce that the “Second Coming” is past, but Bray has not yet “realized” what King claims to “realize” in regard to the “Resurrection” and the “Final Judgment” [MATTHEW 24 FULFILLED by John L. Bray, pgs. 274, 282]. When I started issuing critiques of Bray’s book, I was immediately informed by the “Preterist Archive” (”full pretie”) that Bray did not “speak” for the “P.A.” “camp.”

The “part-preties” claim that “some” things were “fulfilled” in the past, while the “full-preties” tell us that “everything” has been “fulfilled.” The latter view, or the deepest “ditch,” includes the Second Coming of Christ, Resurrection, the Rapture, the Judgment, the Millennium, the Antichrist, the Abomination of Desolation, the Great Tribulation, the New Heavens and New Earth, all the prophecies of Daniel, Matthew 24, Revelation, etc., and numerous other passages which only those with the peculiar “enlightenment” of the Preterists have “realized” as having been “fulfilled.”

If you want to “see” all these glorious “fulfillments” and jump-in for a swim in the pool of “Realized Eschatology,” you will find the “Rosetta Stone” of Preterism at the “Preterist Archive.” There you can drink of the “elixir” of “Preterist Prophetic Phantasy” to your little heart’s content.

Preterists refer to this fantasy in a jargon called “Realized Eschatology,” a high-falutin’ expression used by the late C. H. DODD, a man who perhaps knew and taught about as much of the Bible as the “ministers” at the nearest “Kingdom Hall,” “Church of Latter Day Saints,” “Church of Christ,” and “Unity Church.” An excellent biblical “reference” to such stuff known as “Realized Eschatology” is found in Romans 1:25, for it is the same in its “results” as the type of “vain imagination” therein described.

The “scholars” who man the “fort” at the “Preterist Archive” and reign on the “thrones” which produce the “Kingdom Counsel” magazine are among the modern entrepreneurs who “hawk” the wares of Preterism, hoping to hit “pay-dirt” with all the “suckers” and “mush-lappers” who have no better-way to waste their money. These “hawkers” do not mind using whatever device is “pragmatic” and “practical” in the “making of a buck.”

For example, without a blush, they will even snatch any “crumb” they can find which bears the name of “C. H. Spurgeon,” whose works we publish and whose name and honor we are set-to-defend whenever “Spurgeon” is distorted, misused, falsely “quoted,” etc. We have rebuked and reproved JOHN L. BRAY for his abuse and misuse of Spurgeon, but he is not the only “Pretie” who is guilty.

I have in my hand the “Magnum Opus” of modern Preterism, written by a Baby-sprinkling Congregationalist Minister, J. STUART RUSSELL (1816-1895), who didn’t know “what” the word “baptize” means, nor “who” is to be “baptized,” yet he “knew” that the “Antichrist” was “NERO,” and he wanted his readers to believe he knew what “fulfills” Bible prophecy. This is the “spring” from which most of the modern “preties” have drunk the pretie “elixir,” including the “high priest” of the “realized eschatologists” among the Campbellites (or “Church of Christ”), MAX R. KING. From what I can gather, King’s father-in-law seems to have led the son-in-law to this “spring,” and Max has subsequently led many of his “Restoration Movement” brethren to drink of the “Kingdom” elixir. “Church of Christ” Minister, C. D. BEAGLE, father-in-law of Max King, reportedly was among the “first” to inspire Max into the study of “Russellism” [J. Stuart’s brand], and Max eventually “realized” enough of it that he published a book, THE SPIRIT OF PROPHECY (1971), to be followed later by the big book of 784 pages of wasted paper, THE CROSS AND THE PAROUSIA OF CHRIST (1987).

Max and his “disciples,” such as Jack C. Scott, Don Preston, Charles Geiser, and company, have been creating “no small stir” for the “among-us,” “faithful brethren,” “Church of Christ” for many years. “Kingism” and “A.D.70-ism” have been the “subjects” of articles in magazines and themes of “lectures” at “Lectureships” wherever “the Lord’s church” has “faithful congregations,” wearing a “scriptural name,” opposing the use of “mechanical instruments of music,” and teaching the heresy of “baptismal remission of sins,” as taught by the likes of the late Austin McGary, “Firm Foundation,” “The Spiritual Sword,” and their “brotherhood.”

This book by Russell has also been promoted by one of the foremost “hawkers” of Preterism, GREAT CHRISTIAN BOOKS [Elkton Maryland - now out of business], the “discount book” company headed by WALTER HIBBARD.

[By the way, there is at least one “redemptive” value in reading Preties, and that is, you can’t find any two of them who will stand-by the “views” of another one, and this serves as a sort of “circus entertainment,” as all the various “creatures” of fantasized “prophecy” are “whipped-around” by enlightened Preterist “Ringmasters.” It is just as “entertaining” as listening to the latest “exciting prophetic reports” from some of the current Premillennial “prophecy-experts,” such as Jack Van Impe and Hal Lindsey, who themselves are not free of the preterist “virus,” especially on the book of Daniel].

Russell’s book of 561 pages of spoiled-paper hopefully profited the printer and publisher, but as for assisting in understanding Bible prophecy, any “profit” comes in the form of the readers’ seeing the same type of folly which was displayed by the prophets of Baal (I Kings 18), the Magicians of Pharaoh (Exodus 7-9), and the Magicians, Astrologers, and Sorcerers in Babylon (Daniel 2). I think of Preterism as a sort of “Prophetic Houdinism,” for Preties can find more “escapes” from the “chains” of Scripture than “the Great Houdini” found ways to escape the chains used in his craft.

This book, known as THE PAROUSIA, was issued by J. Stuart Russell in 1878, and it was immediately “branded” by C. H. SPURGEON with an unmistakable rejection as to its thesis, in the following words —

“THE REASONING FAILS.”

Why Spurgeon even called it “reasoning” is simply due to Mr. Spurgeon’s gracious gift of “charity,” not being more “critical” than a case required. Spurgeon did say, in his own characteristic manner, that demonstrating the idea that Revelation was “fulfilled” in A.D.70 “requires more ingenuity and strength than that of men and angels combined.” He adds, “Amidst the many comings of Christ spoken of in the New Testament that which is spoken of as a SECOND, must, we think, be personal, and thus similar to the first; and such too must be the meaning of ‘his appearing.’ ”

While Spurgeon said Russell’s “theory is carried too far,” yet in typical Spurgeonic charity to the publishers who furnished him books, in his “reviews” he seemingly always tried to at least find some little justifiable “morsel” of “promotional assistance” so as to help the donor-publishers at least recover their “cost” — so, he gave a final word, saying that the book “can be injurious to none and may be profitable to all.” [THE SWORD AND THE TROWEL Magazine, October 1879, pg. 553]. In saying this, Spurgeon probably was assuming (as most of us would likewise have assumed) that his readers “had more sense” than to “take seriously” the fantasies of Mr. Russell.

The Preties, however, disregarding the PRIMARY portion of Spurgeon’s negative review, which condemns the book as saying “much more than ought to have been said,” and declaring that “the reasoning fails,” etc., latched-on to the scant few “charitable” words in the review, and have plastered Spurgeon’s name on the back cover of a 1983-reprint of this hunk of hokey, creating an impression that Spurgeon “endorsed” the contents! We at times have “suspicioned” that Baker Book House might be a bit inclined to allow “financial consideration” to be a wee-bit more motivational in Baker’s choice of titles than it should, and the use of this cover “blurb” only adds “fuel” to that “suspicion.” To “represent” Spurgeon by excerpting a SINGLE line from an otherwise completely NEGATIVE review of Russell’s book, is “typical” of the “reputation” which Preties are creating for themselves, especially in regard to the distortion of Spurgeon; he seems to be their favorite “victim.”

Only those who are ignorant of Spurgeon’s views would ever “fall” for the idea that he gave his approval to the contents and views expressed in this piece of palabber.

For C. H. Spurgeon’s “REAL” views on prophecy, see our brief article, Spurgeon’s VIEW OF THE MILLENNIUM, also visit The Spurgeon Archive, where Dennis Swanson has objectively researched and written the most responsible work on Spurgeon’s ESCHATOLOGY available today, other than the writings of C. H. Spurgeon himself.

1. A VISIT TO “MACCABEESVILLE” — BIRTHPLACE OF PRETERISM

We noted that the idea that Bible “prophecy” is “past,” as declared by uninspired men, is called “Preterism,” and it alleges that predictions and foretellings of Scripture have “already been fulfilled.” This form of uninspired “divination,” claiming to “know” what, when, and where something was “fulfilled,” apparently originated with the uninspired Jew (or, Jews, as the case may be) who wrote the uninspired books called “Maccabees,” which appear in the “Apocrypha.” He wrote in a “desolated” time when, he indicates, there was no “prophet” (1 Maccabees 4:46); but evidently he thought he was at least enough-of-a-”prophet” to “divine” the “fulfillment” of prophecy. Consequently, he ventured to proclaim it in his day, and to further complicate matters for future generations, his “divination” has been perpetuated by the continued publication of the Apocrypha.

The most notable “victim” of this Jewish “diviner” is perhaps the BOOK OF DANIEL and its prophecies about the “Little Horn” who is to appear in the latter days of the world as we know it today. The vision of Daniel in chapter 2, and the visions of Daniel in chapters 7, 8, and 10, all pertain to the “END,” culminating with the Second Coming of Christ, the destruction of the “Little Horn” [”Antichrist”] and his Kingdom, the Restoration and Conversion of the Jews to Christ, the Resurrection of the Dead, the Final Judgment, and the Reign of Christ on earth with His Saints. But the Preterist Jew who wrote the Maccabees found “fulfillments” of Daniel’s prophecies in persons, places, and events which preceded even the first coming of Christ.

Right from the “get-go” of the book of First Maccabees, we are asked to believe that “a wicked root, Antiochus surnamed Epiphanes, son of Antiochus the king,” was the “man” to whom the Angel referred when he communicated the “truth” to Daniel about his visions. According to First Maccabees, this man, Antiochus, “set up” the “ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION” (1 Maccabees 1:54).

When that uninspired Jew penned that pronouncement, Preterism had its “birth.” This is the “first cornerstone” of Preterism — the idea that Antiochus Epiphanes “fulfills” something either in-part or in-full in the Book of Daniel. And it was the “first” of many such “divinations” of “fulfilled prophecy” yet-to-come in the history of Preterism.

This pronouncement has influenced both the eschatology of “Futurists” and the eschatology of “Preterists,” as both “camps” have disregarded, distorted, discombobulated, and otherwise mangled the Book of Daniel in regard to prophecy.

JESUS CHRIST, the Son of God, had committed unto Him ALL of the “revealable” knowledge about prophecy and its fulfillments, according to the Will of His Father, in Whose “Power” all prophetic knowledge abides (Acts 1:7), and when the Son spoke the name of “Daniel” in the ONLY use of the Prophet’s name in the New Testament, Jesus demonstrated a TOTAL REJECTION of the “diviner” who wrote Maccabees. He didn’t even bother to say, “You have heard… BUT.” Jesus Christ did not even bother to dignify the Maccabees’ “divination” as being worthy of any “notice” (Matthew 24:15; Mark 13:14). In effect, Jesus was saying, “You have seen NOTHING yet! The Abomination of Desolation, spoken of by Daniel, is STILL TO COME!”

Jesus REJECTED the very first “leg” of the Preterism “Paradigm”! He did not give the “Antiochus” theory the “time of day!” And the only reason we are giving it the “time of day” is because the old “divination” is still around and causing more misunderstanding of the Book of Daniel in all the “prophecy camps” than we could catalogue. And… it has appropriated the name of Spurgeon to some of its merchandise, as if he endorsed the product.

That uninspired Preterist Jew “thought” he had “seen” a “fulfillment” of Daniel, but he had really “seen” nothing. From that “point-in-time,” of course, he knew nothing of the subsequent history of events which would transpire — the history which we know from a 1997 point-in-time, as we look backward. He was “divining” in accordance with the very limited information he had of events of history available to him in those days before the coming of Christ, and he thought that Antiochus looked-like the “real thing,” considering how Antiochus had dealt so viciously with the Jews and their Temple.

But Antiochus was not the “man” — he did not set the Abomination of Desolation spoken of by Daniel, and so was not the “Little Horn.” When he read “king of the south” and “king of the north” (Daniel 11), he could not forsee, for instance, the FUTURE “king of the south” and “king of the north” who would arise in the 7th century A.D. when the Arab Empire would be born, and “split,” and generate wars over which Muslim “king” would dominate the Middle East. He could not forsee that the “vile person” of Daniel 11:21 would arise in the “northern” kingdom of the divided Middle East Arab Empire, the “Great Nation” which God had promised to ISHMAEL (Genesis 17:20; 21:13, 18; cf Daniel 11:5).

Antiochus Epiphanes “fulfilled” nothing written in Daniel. The things attributed to the “time-frame” of the “Little Horn’s” career have NEVER come-to-pass — they still lie in the future. Whenever you read or hear someone claim that “Antiochus” is any kind of “fulfillment” of any part of Daniel, you are reading or hearing JEWISH PRETERISM which first appeared in the uninspired book of First Maccabees, an uninspired writing by an unspired Jew —

Jesus REJECTED it!

You are in “Maccabeesville” when you hear that “Antiochus” fulfilled something in Daniel, and your “Tour Guide” is a “Maccabees Preterist.” Watch your step, or you’ll fall into the ditch of Preterism! Or, you could get “routed” by the “Guide” to another “city” in Preterist Phantasyland…

2. A VISIT TO “JOSEPHUSTOWN” — BIRTHPLACE OF “A.D.70? PRETERISM

Here you will encounter “Josephus,” the chief priest and “Father of Preterism” in relation to the “time-frame” which takes-in “A.D.70.” This Jewish priest was the “Pet Jew” of Roman Emperor, TITUS, the “General” of the Roman Army when Rome decimated the city of Jerusalem in A.D.70. Later on, when Titus became the Emperor of Rome, he was “so desirous” of notoriety that he “ordered” the publication of a “History,” written by Josephus, in which Titus is highly “embellished” and praised for his impeccable military qualities, and for what Josephus calls “the kindness of his nature.” If we can fully believe Josephus, we can fully believe that General Titus’ hands were “clean” as to the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple of the Jews — he reportedly even tried to get his soldiers to put-out the fires which Titus allegedly said were set by “the Jews” themselves (WARS Book VI, paragraph 2, pg. 584, Kregel reprint of 1966).

But Josephus has his “critics,” and they do not speak too highly of his reliability. In his “Foreword” to the Josephus book, William S. LaSor brands Jospehus “an egotist and opportunist,” and a man of many domestic problems — “married three times, perhaps four; he was deserted by one wife and divorced another” (pg. ix). LaSor says Josephus gives a “distorted picture of the Essenes,” and alleges other foibles in him (pg. xi). Certainly, Josephus’ embellishment of Titus involved a “pragmatic” element, avoiding any offence against the Emperor. Many of his descriptions of the “attributes” of Titus are a little “much” to “swallow.” This is not to say that his history is “totally unreliable,” but it is to say that some things he reports must be “taken with a grain of salt,” evaluated in the light of the circumstances. In fact, Josephus was of the sect of the Pharisees (Complete Works of Josephus pgs. 1 & 2).

The account of Titus’ having his soldiers “beaten” as an encouragement to put-out the fires of the Temple, yet to no avail, is an example — can we “really believe” that a Roman soldier would risk “refusing” to obey his General, an act which would have surely merited death? This appears to be at least an “overstatement” by Josephus, designed to “curry favor” with and for “gentle” Titus. Like many “Generals,” Titus perhaps relished that idea he was “on God’s side” and “God was on his.” The statements in Josephus about the “role” of “God” as being the “assistant” to the Romans certainly would clearly serve to enhance Titus’ reputation with both the Romans, the Jews, and with other peoples of that time.

Thus, “History” has recorded that Titus was a “gentle” sort, that “God” was his “assistant,” and he was therefore someone very “special.” In fact, Josephus has made Titus so very “special” that Josephus, a Maccabees Preterist, “made room” for Titus and added his name to the the “fulfillments of Daniel” category. Before A.D.70, Josephus was already a believer in the Preterism of the Maccabees in regard to “Antiochus,” but now, no doubt to the great delight of Titus, Josephus “divined” another “fulfillment” of Daniel when he said that “Daniel ALSO wrote concerning the Roman government, and that our country should be made desolate by them.” (ANTIQUITIES Book X, chapter xi, para. 7, pg. 227, Kregel edition, 1966). Josephus said, “See how they [Daniel’s writings] have been FULFILLED” (Ibid.)

Although Josephus had formerly believed that Antiochus Epiphanes had “fulfilled” the prophecies of Daniel (ANTIQUITIES Book X, chapter xi, pagrph. 7, pg. 227; Book XII, chapter vii, pagrph. 6, pg. 260; WARS, Book I, chapter I, pagrph. 1, 2, pg. 429), out of respect for his “sponsor,” the former Roman General and now Emperor, Josephus accommodated the Emperor, “adjusted” his Maccabees-Preterism, and “immortalized” Titus by exalting him to the level of Antiochus Epiphanes — A “FULFILLER” of the prophecies of the Divinely-inspired prophet, Daniel, who “ALSO” wrote of the “Romans” under General Titus, hundreds of years ahead of time! Don’t you suppose Emperor Titus perhaps felt a little “special” to have “God” refer to him in the Scriptures?

Titus could henceforward and forever “put his finger” on the prophecies of Daniel and say, “That’s me! God prophesied of me! Right there in the prophecies given by the Angel, in the Divinely-inspired Daniel! I’m the ‘man’ about whom the Jewish prophet wrote, hundreds of years ago!” That would make any General feel “special,” especially if he was “doing the will of God.”

Do you think Josephus’ Preterism didn’t make Titus feel “special”? Now, whether-or-not Titus “really believed” that Preterism is beside-the-point; but just consider how being “in” Daniel’s prophecy exalted Titus in the eyes of both the Romans and the Jews. It elevated him to the likes of Jesus and John — fulfillments of Old Testament prophecies. And Titus had the “certification” of a Jewish priest, scholar, and historian — Josephus — that this was indeed authentic: he indeed “fulfilled” the prophecy! How many Generals or any others could say that? He was right in there with Nebuchadnezzar!

So Titus not only had his “divinity” as Emperor of Rome, even more significantly, he had the “uniqueness” — “thanks” to Josephus — of being the one-and-only Roman Emperor who “fulfilled” one of the most significant of all the Jews’ Old Testament prophecies. No wonder Josephus was Titus “Pet Jew” and was paid a pension! (JOSEPHUS pg. 21, Kregel reprint).

But… there was “one small problem” …one little “fly in the ointment” — the “small-print” area — namely, the Christians “didn’t buy it”! They did not “see” what Josephus “saw.” They went right-on looking for the “future fufillment” of prophecy! They did not believe Preterism, that Titus and the Romans had fulfilled prophecy. Even the Preties themselves bemoan the “futurism” entertained by the post-A.D.70 church, a church which allegedly “saw” the “Abomination of Desolation” so clearly they all escaped the “wrath” which came upon the Jews, yet didn’t see the Second Coming of Jesus, the Resurrection, the Judgment, nor any of the other things they would have been expected to “see.” The Preties claim that the church didn’t “begin to see” these things until many years later, perhaps about 150 A.D. (”Kingdom Counsel” Magazine, Ed Stevens, Jan. ‘93, pg. 12).

As years passed, some of the “Christians” yoked-up with secular Rome in the making of Christianity as THE “state religion,” and began to “discover” what “really happened” in A.D.70 (that is — according to Josephus; see Eusebius’ Ecclesiastical History pg. 86; Baker 1966). They began to “see” the Preterism of the Maccabees and Josephus. A “Bishop” named EUSEBIUS, a sympathizer with heretic Arius and a “middle-of-the-roader” as to the controversy on the Sonship of Christ, began to spout the Preterism of the Maccabees and Josephus. “SAINT JEROME” joined the “camp” and wrote on “Daniel,” promoting at least some of the preterism originally set-forth by the uninspired Jewish writer of Maccabees. Now Preterism was “expanding” itself to incorporate the “New Testament prophecies,” blending them with the “fulfillments” pronounced by the Maccabees and Josephus, disregarding the words of Jesus in Matthew 24:15, or else “adjusting” those words so as to “accommodate” Preterism. Some of “the Fathers” accepted Jerome, Eusebius, Maccabees, and Josephus, and Preterism was now becoming “entrenched for the ages.”

It now not only had Jewish “authority” and Roman Emporial “authority” behind it — it had the embellishment of some of the “Fathers” of the “Church.”

3. THE JEWISH ‘CHRONOLOGY’ — DANIEL “FULFILLED” BEFORE CHRIST!


To insure that the Maccabees’ Preterist theory of Daniel’s having been “fulfilled” in the past in the days of Antiochus, early-on the Jewish scribes and scholars set themselves to the task of “expounding” point-by-point, verse-by-verse, the “fulfillment” of Daniel’s prophecies, especially as recorded in Daniel 11. They took that chapter and “hammered-out” the “historical fulfillment” theory you see in all the “Pete and Re-Pete” books and commentaries which present the Preterist theories of Maccabees. They applied Daniel 11 to the “Ptolemies and Seleucids,” following the collapse of the Grecian Empire. They developed a “chronology,” allegedly showing the “history” of “how” and “by whom” Daniel’s prophecies were “fulfilled,” culminating with “Antiochus Epiphanes.” All of this sounded “wonderful” to the “inerrantists,” for this “fulfilled prophecy” surely demonstrated the “inspiration” of the Scriptures! No, what it demonstrated was UNBELIEF in the Second Coming of Christ, as revealed by Daniel!

[This “Chronology” is about as “clear as mud.” WALTER K. PRICE, who wrote a book based on this “Chronology,” says “a confounding array of unfamiliar names, dates, battles, and political intrigues challenge every endeavor to relate Daniel’s prophecy to its fufillment in the historical events of the third century B.C.” (IN THE FINAL DAYS pg. 38). Commentators who take it “seriously” struggle in the quagmire of disciphering the proper “parallels,” and will try to tell you “who’s what”and “who’s not,” as best as they can (see John Gill, for instance).]

With the aid of the Josephus’ Preterism, “Saint Jerome” and his devotees incorporated Josephusism with Maccabeesism and successfully put a veritable “lock” on the Book of Daniel. Some of the “part-pretie” Premillers, although “buying” much of the Preterism of Maccabees and Josephus, “jumped the traces” and developed a “gap” theory called the “70th Week of Daniel,” so as to somehow get some of Daniel into the “future prophecy” category. But their confusing, conflicting, and combobulated “interpretations” and “applications” of Daniel simply served to enhance the view of Preterism. Compared to some of the “hermeneutics” of some Premillers, the “hermeneutics” of the Preties appear “valid.” Anyone who can’t “swallow” Scofield’s two “Little Horns” and three “Abominations,” Larkin’s chartology and peccadilloes [see his Book of Daniel pg. 30], Sir Robert Anderson’s “chronology,” and similar “cornfusion,” is apt to lap-up the Preterist theories, simply out of “frustration,” if for no other reason.

With the added “cornfusion” of the “part-pretie” futurists in the premill, postmill, amill camps, nobody reading their books or listening to them could make “heads-or-tails” of what Daniel actually reveals. Despite their multitudinous “charts” and “prophecy conferences,” Daniel is a veritable “labyrinth” of confusion in the minds of most Christians. The miasmic-mix of preterism and futurism only served to “make a good living” for the Hal Lindsey ~ Jack Van Impe ~ Grant Jeffrey types, and other such “prophecy experts” who jam the world of “Christian television” and burden the shelves of Christian bookstores. Such a mixture of preterism-and-futurism represented by this sort has done nothing to expose any “light” on the Jewish preterism which smothered the prophecies of Daniel, so instead of focusing on the focus of Daniel’s prophecies — namely, the emerging LITTLE HORN — the modern Premill “prophecy-expert” is trotting-around “Russia” and “Europe,” predicting a “Gog-Magog” “Russian invasion of Israel” and a “Restored Roman Empire,” with the “Pope” somehow stirred into the mix.

Such “cornfusion” by the Premill futurists has become so repetitive, and with so many failed “raptures” and similar failed “prophecies,” such has only served to promote “Full Preterism” to many who don’t understand Daniel any more than did the Maccabees and Josephus. They all want to “close” Daniel for good, and keep it closed, relegating it to the past Jewish-decreed “fulfillments” by Antiochus and the Romans.

With the republication of the J. Stuart Russell book, and with the writings by “Campbellite” Max King, “Full Preterism” has been “catching attention” in the last 20 years or so. If we can believe the promotional propaganda of the Full Preterists, Preterism is “spreading like wildfire at the grass roots level,” the typical “euphoria” which characterizes every new “movement,” “restoration,” cult and proselyte sect, obsessed with the “importance” of “restoring the truth.” The fact is, “Full Preterism” has made a “dent” in the “Campbellite” sect, the “Church of Christ,” primarily because many of the “hawkers” of Preterism were themselves Campbellites, such as Max King, Don Preston, and Ed Stevens (the latter, Stevens, is now “Reformed”). “Campbellite” eschatology was never “straight,” and many Campbellites were already “ripe for the picking” by Preterism. The “pretie” views of the late Foy Wallace, Jr. actually “paved the way” for the “full-pretie” views of the “A.D.70-ites.”

Certain “Calvinist” and “Reformed” camps are also “blind-as-bats” to the Book of Daniel as a result of swallowing Maccabees’ preterism and the Josephian preterism. This is especially true of the Pedobaptist Calvinists who were already “conditioned” for Preterism as a result of their “interpretation” of the Abrahamic Covenant, Israel~Church, and Circumcision~Baptism. From the Pedobaptist views of these entities there is but a “step” to the precipice of “Full Preterism.”

NOW YOU KNOW — “Preterism” is originally based upon Jewish “eschatology” in Maccabees, later that of Josephus, and the “Chronology” concocted by the Jews to make interbiblical “history” match-up with Daniel. Keil & Delitzsch do a commendable work in “ripping-apart” most of the “historical fulfillment” chronology concocted by the Jews and perpetuated by Jerome and others. The Preterist themselves “fumble-the-ball” as to their “use” of Josephus, and they are often “caught” misreading, misquoting, and misapplying his “history,” as demonstrated on the “Preterist Archive.” I pointed this out to the “P.A.” and got a “So What?” in response.

Furthermore, no Preterist can really “defend” the Maccabees, considering the Word of Jesus in Matthew 24:15, putting the “Abomination of Desolation” into the future. Jesus did not refer to “two” or more “abominations,” and if any one “splices” in more than “one,” he is “adding to” the Word of God. And if anyone tries to tell you “A.D.70? fulfilled the “Abomination of Desolation,” hold his feet-to-the-fire of Daniel and make him show the correspondence to “anything” in Daniel. Jesus referred his listeners to “Daniel,” and not to “Josephus” or anything else.

“A.D.70? better match-up or march-out.

Author: Bob L. Ross

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« Reply #6 on: March 31, 2008, 02:31:04 PM »

ok, but what do you call what we are experiencing now, or in other words, are we without a king or kingdom as yet. also i would like to point out that Luke 21 is refering to the destruction of the temple in 70 AD, that has already happened. also, in Matt 16 Jesus was talking to His disciples, some of which were alive when Jereusalem fell in 70 AD. Smiley
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« Reply #7 on: March 31, 2008, 02:37:51 PM »

I am not saying that i am a preterest, but how can you effectivly ignore 2000 years of history? how can we ignore the massacres that occured against the true church? the 'futurist' also ignore the fact that most of the dogma surrounding end times came from a commentary written by a jesuit preist in the 16th century. none of the reformers or early church fathers had the view that we have today of the 'left behind' scenario. i personally think it is the greatest deception ever developed to keep the church in the dark about who the real beasts are.
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« Reply #8 on: March 31, 2008, 02:40:45 PM »

Mark 1:
15  and saying, "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand. Repent, and believe in the gospel."

Luke 11:
20  "But if I cast out demons with the finger of God, surely the kingdom of God has come upon you.

Matt.13:
44  "Again, the kingdom of heaven is like treasure hidden in a field, which a man found and hid; and for joy over it he goes and sells all that he has and buys that field.
45  "Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a merchant seeking beautiful pearls,
46  "who, when he had found one pearl of great price, went and sold all that he had and bought it.
47  "Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a dragnet that was cast into the sea and gathered some of every kind,
52  Then He said to them, "Therefore every scribe instructed concerning the kingdom of heaven is like a householder who brings out of his treasure things new and old."

Mark 1:
14  Now after John was put in prison, Jesus came to Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,
15  and saying, "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand. Repent, and believe in the gospel."

Matt.6:
10  Your kingdom come. Your will be done On earth as it is in heaven.

Matt.25:
25:1  "Then the kingdom of heaven shall be likened to ten virgins who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom.
2  "Now five of them were wise, and five were foolish.

MarK 4:
30  Then He said, "To what shall we liken the kingdom of God? Or with what parable shall we picture it?
31  "It is like a mustard seed which, when it is sown on the ground, is smaller than all the seeds on earth;

Psalms103:
19  The LORD has established His throne in heaven, And His kingdom rules over all.

Psalms 47:
For the LORD Most High is awesome; He is a great King over all the earth.



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« Reply #9 on: March 31, 2008, 02:52:01 PM »

thank you goodshepard. i also noticed one thing in bob ross's comentary, if you look at daniel, there is more than one 'little horn', there is also the 'notable horn' refering to Alexander the great. one of the little horns of daniel is assuredly Antiochus, we also have secular sources other than Josephus that confirm the exploits of the four regions that devoloped in the greek (or macedonian) empire. so it is possible that there are more than one ' abomination of desolation'
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« Reply #10 on: March 31, 2008, 02:59:11 PM »

True maryam...that is what I think
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Esp.6:10 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil  Having your loins girt about with truth, breastplate of righteousness; your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;shield of faith,the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit. 12  For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
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« Reply #11 on: March 31, 2008, 03:05:39 PM »

ok, but what do you call what we are experiencing now, or in other words, are we without a king or kingdom as yet. also i would like to point out that Luke 21 is refering to the destruction of the temple in 70 AD, that has already happened. also, in Matt 16 Jesus was talking to His disciples, some of which were alive when Jereusalem fell in 70 AD. Smiley

There's a difference between "The Kingdom of Heaven/God" and the Messianic Kingdom. And you're right about Luke, but there are other details of the Olivet Discourse which can only apply to "the time of the end".

I am not saying that i am a preterest, but how can you effectivly ignore 2000 years of history? how can we ignore the massacres that occured against the true church? the 'futurist' also ignore the fact that most of the dogma surrounding end times came from a commentary written by a jesuit preist in the 16th century. none of the reformers or early church fathers had the view that we have today of the 'left behind' scenario. i personally think it is the greatest deception ever developed to keep the church in the dark about who the real beasts are.

Let me tell you something. "The true Church" - there is NO such thing! There is just "The Church" - "the Body of Messiah", warts and all. Every sect and denomination are always pointing fingers at each other, accusing each other of being apostate. The truth is EVERY single sect and denomination IS apostate, in short THE CHURCH IS APOSTATE, that was even the case in Apostolic times, as the epistles cleary indicate. Do know what is the biggest problem in the Body of Messiah? DIVISION! And that's exactly what the enemy wants because Yahshua said:

"A house divided against itself will not stand".

The Church of today is no better than idolatrous Israel of old, we sin just like they did, and our Father will punish us like He punished them. That's what the trib is for - chastenment.

And I couldn't care about either the Reformers or the Jesuits, as both were anti-Semetic and held replacement theology which is from the pit of Gehenna. I use the Tanakh to interpret the NT prophecies because that's what the 1st century Church and the Apostles used, because the Tanakh is what they had at the time. Not that I don't consider other NT passages but I always approach the Tanakh first, because they were the first believers and that's what they used. And contrary to popular opinion the prophecies concerning "the Day of YAHWEH" are very furturistic.
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« Reply #12 on: March 31, 2008, 03:17:25 PM »

Let's take a look at these passages, they are very interesting and they speak clearly.

The stone symbolizes the kingdom of Christ to be established upon this earth after the dividing of the iron with clay (Rome).

Daniel 2:34,35
"Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces. Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth."

v.44,45
" And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.  Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure."

This kingdom will be set up at the second advent of Christ. (see v. 44,45 above)

2 Tim. 4:1 "I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;"

Matt. 25:31-34 "When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

Since all earthly kingdoms are destroyed when Christ Jesus sets up His kingdom, all earthly kingdoms do not belong to Jesus, but rather to the devil, the great archrebel -

Rev. 19:19,20 "And I saw the beast (false theocracy), and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against Him that sat on the horse, and against His army. And the beast (kingdom) was taken, and with him the false prophet (apostate christians) that wrought miracles before him, with which he (the devil) deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image (Dan. 7:25). These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Luke 4:5,6 "And the devil, taking him up into an high mountain, shewed unto him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time. And the devil said unto him, All this power will I give thee, and the glory of them: for that is delivered unto me; and to whomsoever I will I give it.

Thus this prophecy of Dan. 2 centers upon the glorious kingdom of Christ Jesus that shall NEVER end.

Luke 1:31-33 "And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David (in the spiritual sense): And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of His kingdom there shall be no end.

Matt. 25:34 "Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:"

Rev. 21:1-4 "And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be His people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away."

An actual eyewitness' account of the earth made new! In this prophecy the failure of the devil to establish an everlasting kingdom is contrasted with Jesus' glorious and everlasting kingdom that succeeds these perishing earthly governments. Read through Daniel 11 with spiritual eyes and you will see a parellel of the things Jesus' people will have to pass through. Specially look at v.'s 31-37 and 45. There will be a time when we as Christ's elect will have to be tried as never before to show our fidelity to Christ and His truth. Some call it a "Jacob's trouble" time. Notwithstanding, we will be saved from it.

However, if we would honor and extol Christ Jesus, we must study and spread these prophecies in which Jesus is the cental theme, so says the Word.

John 12:32 "And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me."

1 Cor. 2:2 "For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and Him crucified."

Re 22:7  "Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book."
Re 22:12  "And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be."
Re 22:20  "He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus."
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« Reply #13 on: March 31, 2008, 04:01:01 PM »

ok, but everything you posted refers to the time after every seal, trumpet, and vial has been poured, the new heavens and new earth dont come until the devil is cast into the lake of fire which is after the 1000 year reign. so, you are postmill. i dont mean anything, i also agree that the gospel should be the central theme in every sermon or testimony one might give. however, end time doctrine can be found in many songs we sing, many sermons we hear(almost every sermon i have heard makes some referance to it) so it is an important doctrine to understand if it is to be preached on, testified on, and sung about(such as the rapture) i think what is important, is that we are extoled not to be decieved, the bible warns us that if it were possible, he would decieve the very elect, and i believe that the devil is probably a little more clever than what you or i think(by no means to give it any honour of course) and i believe that this end times theology is one of the areas(next to creation) that he hits the hardest to blind people from the real beast. listen, if 'left behind' is true, then who can possibly be decieved by the devil? because that is the opinion of the majority of evangelicals and catholics and probaly even muslums(only by differant means of course). let me ask you another question, is it possible for the wicked to go through tribulation, or do they recieve judgement(per scripture)?
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« Reply #14 on: March 31, 2008, 04:14:44 PM »

Well Yahshua did say: "A good tree does not produce bad fruit, and a bad tree does not produce good fruit, and you shall know them by the fruits that they bear."

What good fruit has the rapture doctrine produced? None, it has produced complacentcy and carelessness - it's a doctrine of escapism. Yes it is true that God will protect His children, but anyone who has read OT will notice that God's protection is often, shall we say "less than comfortable"? However preterism doesn't produce good fruit either. Yahshua said that we must be watchful, preterism doesn't encourage this, preterism encourages disobediance.

There's gonna be a trib, because we NEED a trib, and not only that we DESERVE a trib - we need a spanking not a rapture.
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