The PEOPLE of the Ruler to come.

[thinker]

The "PEOPLE" of the Ruler to come helps identify the RULER


To help identify the “people of the ruler”, one needs to examine what “peoples” actually desolated the city of Jerusalem and the Temple.  Daniel wrote that there were decreed desolations (plural) of both the city and the temple and here are some of the nations (peoples) that did just that, either desolating the city or the temple or both:

593 B.C.  Babylon (when Nebuchadnezzar was king) – Temple under siege, stopped the daily sacrifices and offerings.

586 B.C.  Babylon (when Nebuchadnezzar was king) – Destruction of Jerusalem and destruction of Solomon’s Temple.

169 B.C. (+/-) Seleucids (when Antiochus was king) – Profanes the temple.

70 A.D.  Rome (when Titus was emperor) – Destruction of the Second Temple.

135 A.D.  Rome (when Hadrian was emperor) – Total destruction of Jerusalem and disallows Jews from entering Jerusalem.

614 A.D.  Persia (when Shahrbaraz was the Shah) – Bloody Massacre of Jerusalem and destroys most churches and once again expels the Jews from Jerusalem.  Massive looting, burnings and sacrilege took place.   26,000 Jews turned against “Christians”, joined the Persians and killed over 90,000 “Christians”, for which Persia gave the Jews amnesty and Jewish worship resumed in Jerusalem once again.  Although Persia desolated the city, they did not set up an abomination on the Temple Mound.  That was to be done by the Caliphate.

629 A.D.  Byzantine – Briefly recaptured Jerusalem.

638 A.D.  Caliphate (when Umar was caliph) – Caliphate conquers Jerusalem.

691 A.D.  Caliphate (when Abd al-Malik was caliph) – Dome of the Rock completed on the Temple Mound. 

701 A.D.  Caliphate (when al-Walid was caliph) – al-Aqsa completed, the second mosque on the Temple Mound.

1010 A.D.  Caliphate (when al-Hakim was caliph) – Destroys synagogues and churches.

1219 A.D.  Caliphate (when Sultan Malik-al-Muattam was caliph) – Razes the city walls of Jerusalem. 

1517 A.D.  Ottoman (when Ottoman was caliph) – Peaceful takeover of Jerusalem.


First, it was Babylon, second Seleucids, third Rome, fourth Persia and finally the fifth Caliphate.  The Ottoman Empire did not desolate the city or the temple, per se.  That was already done by Persia and the Caliphate before him.  Persia was the last nation (was not an empire at this time) that truly desolated Jerusalem and in a multiplicity of ways and then when Persia’s religious compatriots (the Caliphate) took over Jerusalem in 638 A.D., the Caliphate desolated the Temple, which subsequently led to at least six crusades in an attempt to free Jerusalem from Islamic control.  Some were successful but usually lasted for only a few years and sometimes without war, but by simple treaty.  After the Dome of the Rock was completed in 691 A.D. by the Caliphate, the Muslims never really lost control of the Temple Mound even unto this day, even when the city’s control was turned over to other leaders from time to time.  The Ottoman Empire began in 1517 A.D., a self proclaimed continuation of the Caliphate, and eventually dissolved both the Ottoman Empire and the caliphate in Turkey in 1922 A.D. 

Take note that Daniel said that the “ruler who will come” (Daniel 9:26) would be from among the compatriots (people) of those that “destroy the city” and “will destroy the sanctuary”, not necessarily a world empire.  Babylon was one “people”, Rome was another “people”, Persia (not while an Empire) was another “people” and the Caliphate was the last “people” to date.  Since John excluded Rome and Babylon, by virtue of the terms “one is” (coupled with “who once was and now is not”) and “Mystery Babylon”, respectively, then the only ones left are Persia and the Caliphate.  And they both were religious compatriots (Persia is predominately Shia Muslim) of each other, if not always politically so.  According to John, the “ruler to come” is the two-horned lamb, which is Iran (formerly named Persia).  And guess what, and no surprise, the last nation to desolate Jerusalem was Persia and the last “people” to desolate the temple was Persia’s religious compatriots.  It seems obvious from deductive reasoning that the “ruler that will come” will come from within Islam (represented by the OIC, the 8th Empire, resurrected, Medo-Persia) and Iran (Persia) is a prominent member of the OIC.

The only group of people (sect) left on earth that still hates the Jews are the Muslims, and in particular and vehemently so, Iran (formerly, Persia).  Is this a coincidence?  Not likely.  Daniel said that the people (compatriots) of the ruler that is to come would desolate Jerusalem and Persia (614 A.D) was not only the last nation to desolate the city of Jerusalem but effectuated the next to last abomination that causes desolation that would be “set up” by their religious compatriots, the Caliphate.  And this abomination has already lasted beyond Daniel’s 1290 days/years. 

The last abomination that causes desolation set up by the “ruler that will come” will be set up on a wing of the Temple in the last half of Daniel’s 70th week.  According to John, this Persian (Iranian/Islamic) “ruler to come” speaks on behalf of the Beast (which is the OIC/Islam—Ancient Media-Persia resurrected) and sets up the “image of the beast (Revelation 13:11-18).

In Daniel’s 70th week, this ruler will “confirm a covenant with many” (not necessarily the Jews) in order to trick the world (Daniel 8:12, 23-24; Matthew 24:24; and 2 Thessalonians 2:9) into thinking he is something he is not.  In the middle of Daniel’s 70th week, this “ruler that is to come” will put an end to “sacrifice and offering” and will also set up another (final) abomination that causes desolation on a wing of the temple.  One may conclude that this ruler will allow the Jews to resume worship and sacrifice on the Temple Mound again (like Persia did in 614 A.D.) knowing full well that his eventual plan will be to stop the sacrifices and offerings in order to set up his own abomination that cause desolation (the final abomination), an image that he will force others to worship.

Take care,

[DaDad]

Hi Thinker,

Please forgive my impertinance, but the prophetic chapters of Daniel are preserved for ~1948. -- They have absolutely NOTHING to do with ~483BC; ~230BC; ~33AD; etc.

... as such one might consider Nixon for 11:20 ...

With Best Regards,
DD

[thinker]

Dear DaDad,

I think you missed the point entirely...

[tom]

Where oh where is agreement. 



 

[thinker]

Dear Tom,

Where is agreement?  Forever gone until the actual second coming of Mashia, only then will all mouths be stopped...but diagreement is a necessary evil, otherwise clarity would prevail and reveal YHVH's secret plans (mystery), then even those who are unwise would know but only the wise are supposed to know, understand and be prepared.  Many disagreeing voices must spoken to keep the truth reasonably hidden (except from the few wise) until the snare is upon nearly all and then they will be snared and be taken.

Take care,

[DaDad]

Dear All,

I would agree that there are those who operate in the "line upon line" mode, and thus must "fall backward, and be broken and snared and caught." (Ref. Isaiah 28) And indeed this in-and-of-itself is the essence of evil within the church, although some boast as something to be proud. But Paul saw revelation knowledge as the greater source. (Ref. 2 Corinthians 12:7)

And because most operate in the first, please allow me to present the "fall backward, and be broken and snared and caught" ladder of truths:

1. Daniel's 9th chapter is NOT ~483BC, but rather ~1948, per 12:4 & 9.
2. Daniel 9:2 does NOT reference the book of Jeremiah.
3. The "weeks" are not "sevens".
4. The concise feminine text (sheba/shebuah) is disregarded in favor of the inconcise masculine text (shibiym/shabuwa).
5. There are TWO "messiah(s)" [small "m"].
6. The first "messiah" was the ~father of Israel~; the second was assassinated.
7. The a/c "shall come" is still pending fulfillment


For those with an inadequate conformance to both scripture and history, the above is foreign. It doesn't mean that person(s) is any less a christian, it simply is an observation that false doctrines are inherent to the church, and promulgated to the membership. And although revelation knowledge could have bypassed many of the arguments and confusion, we now must deal with trench based spiritual warfare.


With Best Regards,
DaDad (DD)

[thinker]

Greetings DaDad,

Like I said, many voices are a necessary evil.  Although I do agree with your "line upon line" approach (pratristic and scholastic approach) issue that was condemned by the prophet Isaiah, that does not mean that one can randomly select anything, call it "revelation" and make it the new gold standard.  Remember, the prophetic information has already been provided (divine revelation), now it is "wisdom" that is required to understand the prophetic information already provided.

Take care,

[DaDad]

Hi Again Thinker,

I too believe that scripture has been provided. And within that context, so too the "rules" (Ref. 12:4 & 9). And if a given interpretation violates those rules, one should apply an ample dose of skepticizm. But when that same interpretation equally violates scripture and history, one might think it absurd to hold that as the old "gold standard".

Just because something in the barnyard has fossilized, is it a "mantle piece"?

WBR,
DD

[Teleiosis]

Hi Thinker; I have some thoughts for you based on your original post.

Daniel 9:26 "Then after the sixty two weeks the Messiah will be cut off and have nothing, and the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary.  And its end will come with a flood; even to the end there will be war; desolations are determined." - NASB

First of all a small point, this is Gabriel speaking and he does this for Daniel and us to gain understanding of the vision Daniel had had which was from God.

Second of all, there is a mistake in your listing.  You did not list that Titus destroyed the city in A.D. 70, because he systematically destroyed Jerusalem's defenses in an attempt to avoid total bloodshed.  However, Josephus records that the Jewish zealots would not give in despite their utter inability to repel the Romans until it became necessary to march in and take the city.  In that ensuing battle, it was the Jews who torched the Temple, and Titus in the confusion of the battle could not get his men to put the fire out.  Titus did not want to destroy the Temple.  But the Roman soldiers in revenge and the heat of battle took their frustrations out on the Temple to a small part and helped burn it.  Later, they tore it down.  There was never anything erected there.

This not only fulfilled Daniel 9:26, but Jesus' prophecy that no stone would be left standing on top another.  The Western Wall is not part of the Temple, but the outer wall to the Temple Mount's area.

In your listing, you start with Babylon and say the first invasion ceases sacrifice and offering as if that has some bearing on similar wording in verse 27.  The only time you actually list both city and sanctuary being destroyed is with Nebuchadnezzar's second invasion.  That does not qualify as fulfilling the prophecy because by the time Daniel hears Gabriel's words, that destruction has come and gone.  Daniel chapter 9 is written in the first year of Darius.

And since the Temple was destroyed in the first Jewish revolt, any subsequent conquering of Jerusalem cannot fulfill this prophecy since the prophecy includes both.

So your listing of subsequent "desolations" as if those invasions and wars are somehow related to the desolations God has determined, which we can read about in Revelation with the Trumpet Judgments and the Bowl Judgments which come last; do not apply either.

The 'ruler who will come' is Roman in nature, just as the fourth terrible beast comes from the sea (Mediterranean) and the fourth Kingdom overall in the statue is Rome, which in its latter half is a divided Kingdom as Daniel writes.

Mark

[tom]

I am now forming the view that the way to consider this passage is thus: -

Daniel 9:24-27: -

[The first prophecy]

Seventy weeks of years are decreed concerning your people and your holy city,

   1.   to finish the transgression,
             a.   to put an end to sin, and
             b.   to atone for iniquity,
   2.   to bring in everlasting righteousness,
   3.   to seal both vision and prophet, and
   4.   to anoint a most holy place.

[The second prophecy]

   •   Know therefore and understand that from the going forth of the word to restore and build Jerusalem
             to the coming of an anointed one, a prince, there shall be seven weeks {of years}.
   •   Then for sixty-two weeks {of years} it, (the temple),shall be built again with squares and moat, but in a troubled time.
   •   And after the sixty-two weeks {of years}, an anointed one shall be cut off, and shall have nothing;

Notice there is no 70th week contained here within this prophetic thought.

[The third prophecy concerning the time after the anointed one is cut off and when he returns.  This prophecy concerns the time period from 30 CE to 2042 CE approximately.]

and the people of the prince who is to come shall: -

   1.   shall destroy the city and
   2.   the sanctuary.

Its end shall come with a flood, and

   1.   to the end there shall be war;
   2.   desolations are decreed.

[The fourth prophecy concerns the short period of time after Satan is released from the bottomless pit.  The last 23 years of the existence of the earth, as we know it.  The time period for this prophetic thought covers the years 3042CE to 3065CE approximately.]

And he {the beast} shall make a strong covenant with many for one week; and for half of the week he shall cause sacrifice and offering to cease; and upon the wing of abominations shall come one who makes desolate, until the decreed end is poured out on the desolator {at the time of the final judgement}."


In my view it would seem that history has confirmed and is continuing to confirm this understanding to my satisfaction.

I believe that the four verses stand alone and each describe independent prophetic event(s).

The First prophecy concerns Israel
The Second Prophecy concerns the temple and the Messiah's first coming and acceptance by Israel.
The Third Prophecy concerns the period from the Cross until the second coming when devastation and desolation will prevail in the Promised Land and the Israelite nation is scattered to the four corners of the earth.  The confirming prophecies are not readily apparent in the bible and so they are overlooked and ignored.
The fourth prophecy concerns the period of the Millennium Kingdom and the short while that follows and ends with the final judgement of all of mankind and Satan.

The chronological time order of the prophecies is

The first Prophecy
The second Prophecy         -        The Third prophecy          -      The fourth Prophecy

That is prophecies 1 and 2 are parallel prophecies while prophecies 3 and 4 follow sequentially

It is interesting that the Jewish people have made a number of attempts to return to the promised land.  The goal for each attempt would seem to be the rebuilding of the temple.  It seems that each attempt ended in failure.  Perhaps even this attempt to return will end in failure because God is still walking contrary to Israel. 

God warned the House of Israel that they would suffer two ages of desolation and devastation because of their idolatry.  The end of this period will soon be upon them as the present age/generation of the earth is coming to an end.

My view is that the present age/generation will draw to a close around the year 2042.  At that time the opposition to Israel's presences in the Promised Land will be so strong that Israel's salvation will only be possible if Israel repents of their sin towards God and cries out to him for forgiveness.  Then God will allow Jesus to come on a white cloud for all of mankind to see him and to realise the error of their reasoning,  Jesus will enter into a Peace Covenant with Israel and God will renew his Covenant with the House of Israel and the House of Judah and Israel will be redeemed and restored.

It will be towards the end of the seventh age/generation (during the last 23 years or so,) that Satan will enter into a seven year covenant with people before he is dealt with for good by God.

The fulfilment of the Daniel 2 prophecy with the altar stone coming down from heaven to crush the present kingdoms on earth is rushing up on us and will also be fulfilled around 2042 CE. 

The removal of the domain of the first three beast will be accomplished at that time.  The fourth beast will be slain and thrown into the bottomless pit and Satan will also be put into the Bottomless Pit for 1,000 years.

Then man will enjoy a 1,000 year period of Sabbath rest until the pit is opened after the 1,000 year imprisonment of Satan and Satan rushes to establish his kingdom influence once more.

Now my view does not hinge on the 70th week existing, since the prophesies in Daniel 9:24-26a have already been fulfilled and verse 26b is drawing to its conclusion and verse 27 will shortly start.

It is my view that the search for the "lost" 70th week has arisen because we believe that there is only one prophecy contained in Daniel 9:24-27 whereas my view is that there are four independent prophecies as described above.

There are a number of misplaced and misunderstood prophecies that draw us all into the mire of false prophetic interpretation.

Shalom

Tom

[Teleiosis]

And for what reason to you relegate the one 'seven' to the end of the Millennium and how on earth do you come up with 23 years for the 'period of seven' prophetic years of 360 days each?

Jesus refers to the same abomination of Daniel 9:27 in Matthew 24:15.  He sets that event as a precursor to His parousia at the end of this age.  Relegating the one 'seven' to the end of the Millennium is not supported in Scripture.

Mark

[tom]

Mark

If you put Daniel 7 into a event timeline you will see a similar pattern.  I have not discounted the fact that Satan will make a covenant for one week with many,  i have put that at the end of the last age before the finial judgement.  Now if an age is approximately 1023 years long then the millennium age is 1,023 years long and if Satan is in the bottomless pit for 1,000 of those years then he only has 23 years to achieve his Goal of supplanting God which he is unable to do because God intervenes and deals with him forever.

Now if an age is 1023 years or 1,050 years the short while of Rev 20 still exists and will be experienced by the people of this earth.

Shalom

Tom

[DaDad]

To All,

It would seem apparent a contiguous span of seventy shibiym/shabuwa is the first choice.  Equally, the periods of time are per 9:2.  And finally, the constraint to the fillment is the "time of the end".

It's actually quite a simple prophecy, which is confirmed by both scripture and history.


Or, you can have conjecture and supposition. 


With Best Regards,
DD

[Teleiosis]

Preterism?

Oh really now!

Okay dee-dee, bring it on.  Show everyone the absolute confirmation of prophecy and history side-by-side, line-by-line and year-by-year which relegates the one 'seven' to the distant past.

Mark

[Maryam]

The 'ruler who will come' is Roman in nature,

No he's not, he's Muslim in nature:

(Dan 11:38) But in their place shall he honor the god of forces; a god whom his fathers didn’t know shall he honor with gold, and silver, and with precious stones, and pleasant things.

Yes the AC does worship a god - a war god. The only god that fits the bill is Allah, always commanding his slaves to fight, fight, fight:

(Quran 2:216)Warfare is ordained for you, though it is hateful unto you; but it may happen that ye hate a thing which is good for you, and it may happen that ye love a thing which is bad for you. Allah knoweth, ye know not.

(Quran 8:39) And fight them until idolatry is no more, and religion is all for Allah. But if they cease, then lo! Allah is Seer of what they do.

Not only that he and his followers honor this war god with gold, silver, ect. or else:

(Quran 9:34-35) ...Those who hoard up gold and silver and do not spend it in the way of Allah, unounce to them (O Muhammad) this painful torment: One day all that treasure will be heated up in the fire of hell, and their foreheads and their sides and their backs will be branded with it! (And it will be said to them): This is the treasure which you have hoarded up for yourselves, now taste of what you have hoarded!

Oh and of course he and his followers "make war against the saints", blashpheme YHWH and His son, behead people (Rev 20:4), want to anihilate the Jews, I can go on and on.