The PEOPLE of the Ruler to come.

[Teleiosis]

Yeah, but Islam does not control the North.

Islam is at war with the North.
It attacked the North.
Islam is the South.

The anti-Christ is Roman in nature because prophecy says he comes from the people who destroyed the city and the sanctuary.  That happened in A.D. 70 by the Romans.

Sorry.

And the Qu'ran has no standing here with me.  It is a corrupt work, not worthy of mention.

[DaDad]

Preterism?

Oh really now!

Okay dee-dee, bring it on.  Show everyone the absolute confirmation of prophecy and history side-by-side, line-by-line and year-by-year which relegates the one 'seven' to the distant past.

Mark

My Dearest Teleiosis,

I can give you the intellectual evidence, but the HOLY SPIRIT confims it. So per your expectation, please see the HOLY SPIRIT!

WBR,
DD


... and if I might add a PS:

Regarding "distant past"
I'm not sure how you can confuse so many obvious points.  Daniel 12:4 & 9 dictate an end-time fulfillment for each of the prophetic chapters, including 7, 8, 9, & 11.   The "classical" commentators present the "distant past" (i.e., original text in ~530BC; first fulfillment ~483BC; additional fulfillments ~230BC, & 33AD). However, the interpretation I propose conforms to this modern era. 

So "T", do you now agree with me that these are correctly intended as modern interpretations, (i.e., ~1948)? 

[Maryam]

Yeah, but Islam does not control the North.

Islam is at war with the North.
It attacked the North.
Islam is the South.

Oh really? Let's see what the Bible defines as "the north":

(Ezekiel 38:15) and you will come from your home in the farthest north, you and many peoples with you -- all of them mounted on horses, a vast horde, a mighty army --

God is talking to Gog and where is he from? Where is "the farthest north"?

(Ezekiel 38:6) Gomer and all its cohorts, the house of Togarmah [in] the farthest north and all its cohorts -- the many peoples with you.

Where is Togarmah? Russia? Eastern or Western Europe? NO! Turkey, that's where, and no one in their right mind disputes this fact, same for Gomer. More evidence that "the farthest north" is Turkey:

(Ezekiel 38:2) O mortal, turn your face toward Gog of the land of Magog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal.

Although we have no concrete proof for the real location of Magog, Meshech & Tubal are also located in modern Turkey, backed by Assyrian records, and since Magog is mentioned together with Meshech & Tubal it is highly unlikely that it's anywhere else but modern Turkey. According to the prophets the land mass which is modern Turkey (Asia Minor & Anatolia) is the "farthest north" and from there you jump off the edge! "North" of course means north of Israel, and north of Israel we have Syria, Lebanon, Turkey & Iraq; Turkey is ancient Israel's "north pole" if you will and from there we are to go no further. It doesn't matter that today we can go all the way to the Arctic, it was ancient Jews not modern westerners whom God spoke to, therefore our interpretations must conform to their background & mindset not the other way around.

So these 4 "northern nations" are Syria, Lebanon, Iraq & Turkey and they are ALL Muslim, therefore your statement that "Islam doesn't control the north" is false.

Islam is at war with the North.
It attacked the North.
Islam is the South.

No, an Islamic nation which is south of Israel (Egypt) attacks an Islamic nation which is north of Israel (Syria). Go read the context of Daniel 11, when we get to verse 36, the person changes but the location DOES NOT.

The anti-Christ is Roman in nature because prophecy says he comes from the people who destroyed the city and the sanctuary. That happened in A.D. 70 by the Romans.

Sorry.

Roman in nature? Again Daniel 11:38 declares that he honours a "god of forces", who else besides Muslims honour a war god???

Also your conclusion is primarily based on the false premise that "Roman" always means European, not so at all! The Roman empire at it's zenith extended all the way to the western back of the Euphrates river (southeastern Turkey & western Iraq), "Revived Roman Empire" theorists are obliged to take the eastern portion of the ancient Roman empire into consideration. Furthermore if you read Josephus, you'll discover that the vast majority of the "people" that "destroyed the city and sanctuary" were not Greco-Romans or even Latin-Romans from Rome, they were Syrians, Idumeans & Arabians, it is these people whom the AC will descend from. Even so, the fact that modern Lebanon, Syria, Turkey, Jordan, Egypt, Libya, Sudan, and parts of Iraq (which are ALL Muslim today) were ALSO part of the ancient Roman empire demands that we ALSO add them to our list of "nations" where the AC could come from. In fact Daniel 8 & 11, demands that EVERYTHING west of the Greek mainland be excluded ENTIRELY.

And the Qu'ran has no standing here with me.  It is a corrupt work, not worthy of mention.

It is a corrupt work yes but that's beside the point, the point is 1.3 billion souls (and growing way faster than any other religion) on this planet believe every single word of it including every nation that surrounds Israel (which Scripture mentions by name btw), Satan knows full well what he's doing. Muslims are the only people on earth that have a motive to anihilate the Jews, yes most other people would love see Israel disappear but they don't actually plot to destroy them only Muslims do this. Why? Well besides the fact that their god commands them to which is confirmed in their sacred writings, go see Psalm 83, you won't find one nation on that list that is not Muslim today, and I can give you plenty more Biblical evidence.

Now I've got a challenge for you:

Find me just one literal reference in the entire Bible to any nation that will be judged on "the day of YHWH" that is not Muslim.

[DaDad]

Hi Maryam,

Find me just one literal reference in the entire Bible to any nation that will be judged on "the day of YHWH" that is not Muslim.

DANIEL 2
41 As you saw the feet and toes partly of potter’s clay and partly of iron, it shall be a divided kingdom; but some of the strength of iron shall be in it, as you saw the iron mixed with the clay. 42 As the toes of the feet were part iron and part clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong and partly brittle. 43 As you saw the iron mixed with clay, so will they mix with one another in marriage,* but they will not hold together, just as iron does not mix with clay. 44 And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that shall never be destroyed, nor shall this kingdom be left to another people. It shall crush all these kingdoms and bring them to an end, and it shall stand for ever; 45 just as you saw that a stone was cut from the mountain not by hands, and that it crushed the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver, and the gold.


DANIEL 7
11 I watched then because of the noise of the arrogant words that the horn was speaking. And as I watched, the beast was put to death, and its body destroyed and given over to be burned with fire. 12 As for the rest of the beasts, their dominion was taken away, but their lives were prolonged for a season and a time.



That was easy...


With Best Regards,
DaDad

[Maryam]

DaDad I said a LITERAL reference, i.e. where the nation is mentioned BY NAME!!!

[tom]

Yeah, but Islam does not control the North.

Islam is at war with the North.
It attacked the North.
Islam is the South.

The anti-Christ is Roman in nature because prophecy says he comes from the people who destroyed the city and the sanctuary.  That happened in A.D. 70 by the Romans.

Sorry.

And the Qu'ran has no standing here with me.  It is a corrupt work, not worthy of mention.

Mark of course you are right, the nature of the Anti-christ is from a nation group of people that were a part of the Roman Army that destroyed Jerusalem.  Romes army was drawn from many people groups and they willing fought for Rome because Rome paid well for their fighting skills. 

Now a lot of the People groups around the Promised Land would have been members of the Roman army that sacked Jerusalem.  The actual people group is therefore hidden that you are searching fore.  If you have the written records of the Army at that time you may be able to norrow down the people groups that should be considered.

Rome is just one possibility.

Tom

[Charles Baker]

Dear Tom:

Re. your post to Mark.

Tom -- Now a lot of the People groups around the Promised Land would have been members of the Roman army that sacked Jerusalem.  The actual people group is therefore hidden that you are searching fore.  If you have the written records of the Army at that time you may be able to norrow down the people groups that should be considered.

Rome is just one possibility.

Charlie -- Do you have evidence that the 'princes' of the Roman legions were also from the people groups who were mercenaries in the Roman forces? 

It was Titus, a 'prince' of Roman, who is credited with destruction of the city and the sanctuary in 66-70 AD.

As I see it.

God Bless you.  Charlie.

[Maryam]

Charlie yes, there is historical proof, read on. Mark, here are "the people" that destroyed "the city" and "the sanctury":

...Although the Roman soldiers who participated in the destruction of the temple were ''Roman citizens'' they were not necessarily Europeans because the Roman legions that laid siege against Jerusalem were stationed in the Middle East.

''On 14 April 70, during Passover, Titus laid siege to Jerusalem. To the northeast of the old city, on Mount Scopus, the legions XII Fulminata (a new addition from Syria) and XV Apollinaris shared a large camp; V Macedonica was camped at a short distance. When X Fretensis arrived from Syria, it occupied the Mount of Olives, in front of the Temple.'' [2]

Two of the main legions that participated in the siege against Jerusalem were legion XII Fulminata and legion X Fretensis and both came from Syria. Walid Shoebat and Joel Richardson write:

''For some reason, possibly due to the fact that the capital of the Roman Empire was in Rome - and thus in Europe - many seem to forget that the Roman Empire also included a vast portion of the Middle East. Because most of the soldiers were recruited from the provinces where their garrisons were located, the legions that were stationed in the Middle East were also primarily Arab and, most specifically, Syrian and Turkic'' [3]

In writing about the destruction of the Temple, the historian Tacitus states:

''Early in this year Titus Caesar, who had been selected by his father to complete the subjugation of Judea . .  He found in Judea three legions, the 5th, the 10th, and the 15th, all old troops of Vespasian' s. To these he added the 12th from Syria, and some men belonging to the 18th and 3rd, whom had withdrawn form Alexandria (Egypt). This force was accompanied by twenty cohorts of allied troops and eight squadrons of cavalry, by the two kings Agrippa and Sohemus, by the auxiliary forces of king Antiochus, by a strong contingent of Arabs, who hated the Jews with the usual hatred of neighbors,and lastly, by many persons brought from the capital and form Italy by private hopes of securing the yet unengaged affections of the Prince. With this force Titus entered the enemy's territory,preserving strict order on his march, reconnoitering every spot, and always ready to give battle. At last encamped near Jerusalem.'' [4]

Josephus writes:

''Hereupon some of the deserters, having no other way, leaped down from the wall immediately, while others of them went out of the city with stones, as if they would fight them; but thereupon they fled away to the Romans. But here a worse fate accompanied these than what they had found within the city; and they met with a quicker despatch from the too great abundance they had among the Romans, than they could have done from the famine among the Jews; for when they came first to the Romans, they were puffed up by the famine, and swelled like men in a dropsy; after which they all on the sudden overfilled those bodies that were before empty, and so burst asunder, excepting such only as were skillful enough to restrain their appetites, and by degrees took in their food into bodies unaccustomed thereto. Yet did another plague seize upon those that were thus preserved; for there was found among the Syrian deserters a certain person who was caught gathering pieces of gold out of the excrements of the Jews' bellies; for the deserters used to swallow such pieces of gold, as we told you before, when they came out, and for these did the seditious search them all; for there was a great quantity of gold in the city, insomuch that as much was now sold [in the Roman camp] for twelve Attic [drams], as was sold before for twenty-five. But when this contrivance was discovered in one instance, the fame of it filled their several camps, that the deserters came to them full of gold. So the multitude of the Arabians, with the Syrians, cut up those that came as supplicants, and searched their bellies. Nor does it seem to me that any misery befell the Jews that was more terrible than this, since in one night's time about two thousand of these deserters were thus dissected.'' [5]

Notice that in this passage Josephus makes a distinction between Arabians (Arabs) and the Syrians. This distinction does not exist today because the modern Syrians are Arabs just like every other Arab nation. The Syrians of Roman times were ''Assyrians'' as we shall see below.

Walid Shoebat and Joel Richardson write:

''Indeed, the majority of the ''Roman'' soldiers that destroyed Jerusalem were Arabs, Syrians and Turks. When we look at the four Roman legions that were under Titus during the siege against Jerusalem, we see that they were from the Eastern portion of the Empire and were primarily from Syria or eastern Turkey. Below ate the four legions that were under Titus during the Jewish Roman war and the location that history records for heir garrisons:

Legion 10 Fretensis:     Turkey, Syria

Legion 15 Apollinaris:    Syria

Legion 12 Fulminata:    Melitene: Eastern Turkey, Syria

Legion 5 Macedonica:   Moesia: Serbia, Bulgaria

These four legions were all involved in the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple. The legion, in particular, that went through the wall breach and set fire to the Temple was known as X Fretensis or the tenth legion. It was this particular legion that actually pulled down the entire Temple and made the Temple Mount its new base. It should be pointed out that each legion was composed of several smaller ''cohorts.'' Below is a list of the actual cohorts that comprised the tenth legion and where they originally came from:

A. Thracum: Syria (Syrians)

B. IV Cohort Thracia: Bulgaria and Turkey (Turks)

C. Syria Ulpia Patraeorum: Petra in Edom (Nabatean Arabs)

D. IV Cohort Arabia (Arabs)

Again, these were a mixture of Syrians, Turks and Arabs. While the people who destroyed the temple were indeed Roman citizens, they were not primarily Europeans or Italians, but rather the peoples that lived in Syria and Eastern Turkey during the first century. This verse is concerned with the heritage and lineage of the people as restricted by the text ''people of the Prince'' and not their allegiance to Rome. This is why the text is written in this way. It insists in this connection. Once again, the Bible has led us to the same region. In context, the ''people of the prince'' are simply the people of the Antichrist; the Hebrew ''Am'' for people is persons, members of one' s people, compatriots, countrymen, kinsman and kindred. (Strong's 5971)

Even if we take the meaning of ''Am'' as '' nation'', how will the construct of this verse with such meaning be logical? ''The nation of the Antichrist'' that is entirely futuristic. How can someone conclude that the Antichrist is Roman with this interpretation? It proves nothing, since the nation of the Antichrist would not be know for such a construct. The only logical construction for the context  ''Am'' is the ''kindred'' of Antichrist - his ancestors, his kinsman.
The Antichrist will be from among the people who still live in the Middle East - those who destroyed the city and the sanctuary in Titus' time. This is the natural way to read the text, especially since connecting to the people with the prince is widely accepted.'' [6]

As we have seen, the people of the Antichrist are not Europeans, but Middle Eastern...

Source: http://www.beastfromtheeast.org/Rodrigo_3.html

[tom]

Charlie

Do you have evidence that the only people group that could have influence in the Rome were of purer Roman Blood.  Was not Paul a Roman citizen.  Anyone who was a roman citizen could be a ruler in Rome.  Now when an army is multi-national, the identity of the people group is hidden in the mix of people groups within the army.

Now is the idea that the AC is only limited to 70 AD true?

Tom

[Maryam]

Tom, great observation there. It truly amazes me how obsessed many believers are with blood & lineage, things that in most cases are almost impossible to prove, as factors for finding the identity of the AC.

Paul was a Roman citizen but he wasn't Latin, the ancient Roman empire was multinational and so is the modern European Union - yes it is full of non-western Europeans, of which Muslims from the Middle East & Indian subcontinent make up the largest and fastest growing group.

[Slowride]

Hi Maryam, how are you? haven't seen you here for a while, I guess we just come here at different times.

So these 4 "northern nations" are Syria, Lebanon, Iraq & Turkey and they are ALL Muslim, therefore your statement that "Islam doesn't control the north" is false.

It is also interesting to note that these countries now occupy the lands that were once Daniels leopard beast(kingdom), lion beast(kingdom), and bear kingdom(kingdom).

Could it be that the "beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion"(from Rev13) is none other then the false religion that arose out the lands those old kingdoms occupied?

Maybe we should see if this verse can be applied to the spiritual kingdom of islam:
Dan 7:12  As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.

While the spiritual kingdom of Islam occupies the land of the old beasts/kingdoms it has no dominion(not bound by geographic location, government or even a single leader) yet they continue to survive(lives prolonged) and wage an effective jihad against the world in their effort to make all submit to islam.

Just an unproven theory I am researching, your thoughts please?

[DaDad]

DaDad I said a LITERAL reference, i.e. where the nation is mentioned BY NAME!!!

Dear Maryam,

Please allow me to point out that "literal" and "mentioned by name" are two different things.  I answered your first dictate. Now, if you want to presume GOD is a fool for not providing what you demand, then please tell that to HIM.

With Best Regards,
DD

[Maryam]

Hi Maryam, how are you? haven't seen you here for a while, I guess we just come here at different times.

Shalom Slowride,

I’m ok thanx just very bussy these days, great to speak to you here again it’s been ages.

So these 4 “northern nations” are Syria, Lebanon, Iraq & Turkey and they are ALL Muslim, therefore your statement that “Islam doesn't control the north” is false.

It is also interesting to note that these countries now occupy the lands that were once Daniels leopard beast (kingdom), lion beast (kingdom), and bear kingdom (kingdom).

I knew you were gonna say that, yes you’re correct and I agree.

Could it be that the “beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion” (from Rev13) is none other then the false religion that arose out the lands those old kingdoms occupied?

Well technically Islam arose out of Arabia and of those ancient kingdoms only one actually ruled Arabia – Babylon. Nebonides the last Babylonian king even traveled to Arabia and built a shrine to the moon god (Sin) there, so pre-Islamic Arabia’s connection to Babylon is well supported by archaeology and other historical records, (unlike Heslop’s pathetic attempt to establish doctrine with myths & legends). But yeah, the point is all those ancient territories were conquered for Allah. I recommend this superb two volume study, Moon-o-theism, if you wanna know more.

That said, do I believe that this “beast” is the religion of Islam itself? No, I believe that this “beast” is Islamic…

Maybe we should see if this verse can be applied to the spiritual kingdom of islam:
Dan 7:12  As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.

While the spiritual kingdom of Islam occupies the land of the old beasts/kingdoms it has no dominion (not bound by geographic location, government or even a single leader) yet they continue to survive (lives prolonged) and wage an effective jihad against the world in their effort to make all submit to islam.

Just an unproven theory I am researching, your thoughts please?

Hmm…that’s a very interesting viewpoint which I think is worth further exploration, my take on that verse is different though. I believe that the 4th beast is the same last beast in Revelation because it will be thrown into the lake of fire:

(Daniel 7:11) I saw at that time because of the voice of the great words which the horn spoke; I saw even until the beast was slain, and its body destroyed, and it was given to be burned with fire.

(Revelation 19:20) The beast was taken, and with him the false prophet who worked the signs in his sight, with which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were thrown alive into the lake of fire that burns with sulfur.

I believe that what the above verse is saying is that while the other 3 kingdoms are left to “run their course” the last one will be immediately & abruptly destroyed by Yeshua personally, it will not be allowed to disintegrate or be conquered by another power like every other kingdom in history.

I would be interested to hear more from you as your research develops, though do keep in mind that Islam is a political entity as well as a spiritual entity. Also while it's true the "kingdom" of Islam doesn't have a universal government (Caliphate) or universal leader (Caliph/Imam) right now, it doesn't that will never change, it use to have these things and this is in actual fact what Muslims are waiting for. Actually, come to think of it, when it comes to Biblical kingdoms, how can we have a kingdom without a king? So now what is your take on the 10 horns & little horn, who are they?

DaDad I said a LITERAL reference, i.e. where the nation is mentioned BY NAME!!!

Dear Maryam,

Please allow me to point out that “literal” and “mentioned by name” are two different things.  I answered your first dictate. Now, if you want to presume GOD is a fool for not providing what you demand, then please tell that to HIM.

With Best Regards,
DD

And how are “literal” and “mentioned by name” two different things? If I interpret a verse literally, it means that I believe it means what it says. Eg: if it says “Edom”, I take that as a reference to the region of modern Jordan & KSA, not as some allegorical “code name” for Rome or some other place. So you did not answer my “first dictate”, you gave me two figurative passages that do not literally “spell out” the nations being represented.

So do you presume that God is fool that He would forget to warn us about the most “antichrist” system to ever arise on earth?

[DaDad]

Dearest Maryam,

There are iteral (as opposed to figurative) nations which shall encompass world history. These nations shall rule over peoples and geographies. The third of these empires is described as "shall rule over all the earth". The fifth is "divided". These "divided" are respresented by the Lion/Eagle; Bear; and Leopard; and a one-world-government which "was and is not".

This is a literal depiction of the worlds governments.

But if I might be so presumptious, it would appear that you have an agenda with defies this very scripture, and also simple world history. Those very tangibles are disregarded in preference for a premise.


And finally, I have no trouble what-so-ever with recognizing both the Revelation beast with the seven heads, 10 diadems and 10 horns, (for which one head is wounded); and the false prophet a/c.  I can tell you all these things according to both scripture and history.

What I can't do is convince you. For that you must find the HOLY SPIRIT.


With Best Regards,
DaDad

[thinker]

Dear Maryam (and others),

1. Keep in mind that the leader cannot come from Rome, they were excluded by John.
2. Islam does have leadership by and through the OIC (which is not the traditional spiritual type leadership, like the Caliphate or the Ayatollah).  They are on their 9th leader (if memory serves me correct).
3. Keep in mind the "war desolations" includes many wars on Israeli real estate, but the "war desolations" are different than the "transgression desolation" (the image of the beast marks the next to last war desolation set up by the "prince" who comes from the "people" of the prince) which is different from the "abomination that causes desolation" that was "set up" in 691 AD to begin the 1290 + 1335 day/years count.  And finally, the Battle of Armageddon is the final "war desolation" decreed against the evil "prince".  He fights against Mashia, but Mashia defeats the prince, once and for all.

I have done small compilation of the "war desolations" if anybody is interested...I can post.

Take care,