The PEOPLE of the Ruler to come.

[thinker]

Dear Teleiosis,

Your forgetting two things, Rome was exluded by John and just be cause Nebuchadnezzar had a dream, his empire was not included in Daniel's future dreams by the phrase "that will come"...when Daniel had his dreams/visions, Babylon had already come, zenithed and was all but expired (a couple of years away).

The foregoing dramatically reduces the "playing field"...

More if interested,

Take care

[Teleiosis]

You might want to think about this: John lived past the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple and he never declared that to be the "end."

Rome went on past John.

Nebuchadnezzar didn't just "have" a dream... it was given to him by God.

When Daniel told Nebuchadnezzar what will come, his kingdom was still ongoing so it was still to come as well.  But what God gave Nebuchadnezzar was a glimpse into the future past his kingdom which would be taken over after his death.  So starting with him as the head does not invalidate Babylon as being the first kingdom - and as it controlled Israel at the time, in a total manner having destroyed the nation of Israel and occupying the land and having whisked away her people into captivity (I don't know how more totally you could control a nation...) - Babylon is best qualified to rank up there with Medes/Persia, Greece, and Rome as being controlling nations over Israel.

So your reasons do not reduce the playing field, except in your own thinking.

Adios.

Mark

[Maryam]

Chaddeans ???; Medes/Persia; Greece; IRAQ ???; Coalition - ????? oh my...

No we are not all in agreement that Daniel 2 is about who rules Babylon.
I think it is about who controls Israel which has been and will be God's focus and perspective from (King of the North; King of the South; King of the East) from whch to view end-time prophecy.

Not for this particular prophecy, otherwise it would've been Daniel who had the dream instead of Nebuchadnezzar. Again, Nebuchadnezzar was concerned about the future of his kingdom:

Daniel 2:29 O king, the thoughts that came to your mind in your bed are about future events; He who reveals mysteries has let you know what is to happen.  30 Not because my wisdom is greater than that of other creatures has this mystery been revealed to me, but in order that the meaning should be made known to the king, and that you may know the thoughts of your mind.

Why did YHWH choose to send a vision about the last days to a gentile king? Because the spiritual message in Daniel 2 is not for the Jews or the Church, it's for the unbelieving world - a particular group of unbelievers - those who make up the feet & toes. And when you really think about it this is in no way inconsistent with Scripture as the prophets prophesized to gentile nations too.

In that respect, since Nebuchadnezzar was plainly told HE was the head, the statue starts off with the Babylonians of his time.

It moves forward to the Medes/Persians; Greeks who supplanted them; and finally Rome which conquered Greece.

No, no, no! This prophecy is about Mesopotamia only, remember WHO had this dream. Nebuchadnezzar did not care about the USA or Europe, or Rome for that matter, for him Babylonia was "the world". The Roman empire is nothing more than a mere footnote in Mesopotamian history, their conquest of Mesopotamia lasted less than a year before the Parthians drove them out. There are other reasons why it's impossible for Rome to be the legs of iron, chiefly:

Daniel 2:40 The fourth kingdom shall be strong as iron, because iron breaks in pieces and subdues all things; and as iron that crushes, all these shall it break in pieces and crush.

Do you see "all these"? Did Rome conquer ALL the territories of the previous 3 kingdoms? No it did not! The various dynasties of the Islamic Caliphate however did precisely this, and "crush" and "smash" couldn't be a more accurate description of all their jihad campaigns. Also consider what we are told about the 3rd kingdom:

Daniel 2:39 After you shall arise another kingdom inferior to you; and another third kingdom of brass, which shall rule over all the earth.

That is what the Bible considers "all the earth" - all the territories that made up Alex's kingdom, which stretched from Greece to Turkmenistan. Did Rome conquer them all? NO! Did the Muslims? Yes (including Greece under the Ottomans).

Also notice the anatomy of the statue:

Some argue that the two legs of the image in Daniel 2 are the East-West division of the Roman empire. In his excellent article titled Daniel's Scope of Prophecy Does Not Include Rome!, Dave Watchman writes:

''After that the belly and thighs of brass represent the Grecian Empire of Alexander the Great, today we would call the Middle East. Then the two legs which are merely extensions of the thighs represent two of the four generals which this vast territory was divided up between at the death of Alexander the Great (Daniel 8:21-22). General Ptolemy to the south took over an area around Egypt, and General Seleucid in the north took over an area we would call Syria today, and of course Israel was a land bridge between the two. Then the feet, which are merely extensions of the Grecian legs, represent the future Antichrist Empire; which is the focus of the entire Book of Daniel in the first place.

Read carefully now the anatomy of this metal man image as it is dissected into each of it's parts by the Authorized King James Bible in Daniel 2:32-33 :

This image's head was of fine gold, his breast and his arms of silver, his belly and his thighs of brass, 33) His legs of iron, his feet part of iron and part of clay.

Lets read again the description of the third Grecian Kingdom:

The text says ...his belly and his thighs of brass. It doesn't say his “belly and his hips” of brass, or itdoesn't say his “belly and loins” of brass; IT SAYS HIS BELLY AND HIS THIGHS OF BRASS. Now we know from our own body, the thigh ends just above the knee, and the legs are extensions of the thigh; in other words as that Ole song goes “the FOOT BONES connected to the ...LEG BONE: the LEG BONES connected to the ...THIGH BONE”etc. So the legs and feet are merely extensions out of Alexander the Greats Grecian Empire; therefore making it impossible the Antichrist Kingdom in the feet will come out of the Roman Empire/E.U.! This is where the kings of the North and kings of the South in Daniel Chapter 11 come from: extensions of the Grecian Empire.'' [1]

 

(The Middle East and the Statue of Daniel 2 by Rodrigo Silva)

Yes I'm aware that some translations say "belly of bronze" instead of "belly and thighs of bronze" but the Aramaic reads "belly and thighs of bronze". And yes I know that the Roman empire divided into east and west BUT the iron legs are NOT attached to the hips like the silver arms are attached to the chest. That means the the 4th kingdom began as a divided kingdom it didn't divide later on. Did Rome begin as a divided kingdom? No, did the Islamic Caliphate? Yes, right after Muhammad's death the Muslims fought over who should succeed him, Abu Bakr or Ali ibn Abu Talib, and so we have the Sunni-Shi'ite schism, but what many people don't realize is that the reason for the schism is political not religious.

Not to mention that Rome never ruled from Babylonia like the previous 3 kingdoms, the Islamic Caliphate however did under the Abbasid dynasty, and again Nebuchadnezzar was concerned about Babylonia only!

Plenty more to consider but this should suffice for now.

In the latter times, the Roman world, of which we are a part being (founded upon its structure, culture, military, economics and politics; i.e. Classical "Western" Culture) we will be a divided Kingdom with the introduction of another people unlike us who do not mix.  They are not even a metal; but common clay.

Sorry but as I said earlier an Aramaic word play in the text reveals that the feet & toes are Arab:

Daniel 2:43 And just as you saw the iron mixed (arab) with baked clay, so the people will be a mixture (arab) and will not remain united, any more than iron mixes (arab) with clay.

Any native Aramaic speaker will tell you that this is a word play and its deliberate, again see the other example in Daniel 5 (UFARSIN = divided/Persian) if you think I'm talking nonsense. The feet & toes are Arab, case closed and there is much historical attestation to the Arabs being referred to as "the mixed ones", the Arabs themselves admit this. This is why I keep telling you guys to approach the eastern churches, they know how to interpret stuff like this, your American Euro/USA-centric prophecy gurus don't have a clue.

However, it is still the Kingdom of the North, of which we are a part too, or soon will be; which is the geographic perspective for the anti-Christ.

Yes the AC hails from the north, which does not include anything west of the Greek mainland or anything north of Turkey, Ezekiel 38 is emphatic about where the "furthest north" is.

This is the same iron Kingdom as the fourth terrible beast is described as an iron beast.  The fourth terrible beast is the final Kingdom of Rome, and it is this final rendition of the fourth Kingdom which is smashed by Jesus finally at Armaggedon.

Again no, because the "legs of iron" are not the Roman empire.

The ruler who will come, and there is a specific anti-Christ, can be identified by the near-term prophecy in Daniel 9:26.

That prophecy, which preceded Christ's prophecy about the Temple as well, lets us identify the origin of the ruler who will come by the people who destroyed the city and the sanctuary and that was the Romans in A.D. 70.

First, I've already demonstrated that "Roman" does not have to mean European and you are yet to give me a scholarly rebuttal if you disagree. Second, how can the AC be a European/westerner if the Bible emphatically calls him the Assyrian??? 

Micah 5:2 But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, being small among the clans of Judah, out of you one will come forth to me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth are from of old, from everlasting. 5:3 Therefore he will abandon them until the time that she who is in labor gives birth. Then the rest of his brothers will return to the children of Israel. 5:4 He shall stand, and shall shepherd in the strength of YHWH, in the majesty of the name of YHWH his God: and they will live, for then he will be great to the ends of the earth. 5:5 He will be our peace when the Assyrian invades our land, and when he marches through our fortresses, then we will raise against him seven shepherds, and eight leaders of men. 5:6 They will rule the land of the Assyrian with the sword - the land of Nimrod in its gates. He will deliver us from the Assyrian, when he invades our land, and when he marches within our border.

Where is the land of Nimrod??? The answer is here:

Genesis 10:8 And Cush begot Nimrod; he began to be a mighty man in the land. 10:9 He was a mighty hunter before the Lord; therefore it is said, "Like Nimrod, a mighty hunter before the Lord." 10:10 And the beginning of his kingdom was Babylon and Erech and Accad and Calneh, in the land of Shinar. 10:11 From that land emerged Asshur, and he built Nineveh and Rehoboth ir and Calah. 10:12 And Resen, between Nineveh and between Calah; that is the great city.

Does this look like the west to you? Looks like the AC & his kingdom (the feet & toes) IS centered in Babylonia, otherwise there would be no point for God to give this vision to Nebuchadnezzar. If God had Europe in mind then one of the Roman Caesars would've been the recipient of this dream & its interpretation, did ya think of that? And yes the Assyrian IS the AC:

Isaiah 30:27 Behold, the name of YHWH* comes from afar, burning with his anger, and in thick rising smoke. His lips are full of indignation, and his tongue is as a devouring fire.  30:28 His breath is as an overflowing torrent that reaches even to the neck, to sift the nations with the sieve of destruction; and a bridle that leads to ruin will be in the jaws of the peoples.  30:29 You will have a song, as in the night when a holy feast is kept; and gladness of heart, as when one goes with a flute to come to YHWH’s mountain, to Israel’s Rock.  30:30 YHWH will cause his glorious voice* to be heard, and will show the descent of his arm*, with the indignation of his anger, and the flame of a devouring fire, with a blast, storm, and hailstones.  30:31 For through the voice of YHWH* the Assyrian will be destroyed. He will strike him with his rod.  30:32 Every stroke of the rod of punishment, which YHWH will lay on him, will be with the sound of tambourines and harps. He will fight him in battle, brandishing weapons.  30:33 For his burning place has long been ready. Yes, for the king it is prepared. He has made its pyre deep and large with fire and much wood. YHWH’s breath, like a stream of sulfur, kindles it.

****all Biblically attested titles for Yeshua HaMeshiakh, this is a prophecy about the 2nd coming that no EU theorist every touches.

More:

Isaiah 31:4 For thus says YHWH to me, “As the lion and the young lion growling over his prey, if a multitude of shepherds is called together against him, will not be dismayed at their voice, nor abase himself for their noise, so YHWH of Armies will come down to fight on Mount Zion and on its heights. 31:5 As birds hovering, so YHWH of Armies will protect Jerusalem. He will protect and deliver it. He will pass over and preserve it.” 31:6 Return to him from whom you have deeply revolted, children of Israel. 31:7 For in that day everyone shall cast away his idols of silver and his idols of gold—sin which your own hands have made for you. 31:8 “The Assyrian will fall by the sword, not of man; and the sword, not of mankind, shall devour him. He will flee from the sword, and his young men will become subject to forced labor. 31:9 His rock will pass away by reason of terror, and his princes will be afraid of the banner,” says YHWH, whose fire is in Zion, and his furnace in Jerusalem.

How about this one:

Numbers 24:17 I see him, but not now. I see him, but not near. A star will come out of Jacob. A scepter will rise out of Israel, and shall strike through the corners of Moab, and break down all the sons of Sheth. 24:18 Edom shall be a possession. Seir, his enemies, also shall be a possession, while Israel does valiantly. 24:19 Out of Jacob shall one have dominion, and shall destroy the remnant from the city.”

Where's Europe, where's America? Why is it that the Bible only gives references to Yeshua fighting Muslim nations when He returns? Because:

A Psalm by Asaph.

79:1 God, the heathen have come into your inheritance. They have defiled your holy sanctuary. They have laid Jerusalem in heaps. 79:2 They have given the dead bodies of your servants to be food for the birds of the sky, the flesh of your saints to the animals of the earth. 79:3 Their blood they have shed like water around Jerusalem. There was no one to bury them. 79:4 We have become a reproach to our neighbors, a scoffing and derision to those who are around us. 79:5 How long, YHWH? Will you be angry forever? Will your jealousy burn like fire? 79:6 Pour out your wrath on the heathen that don’t know you; on the kingdoms that don’t call on your name; 79:7 For they have devoured Jacob, and destroyed his homeland. 79:8 Don’t hold the iniquities of our forefathers against us. Let your tender mercies speedily meet us, for we are in desperate need. 79:9 Help us, God of our salvation, for the glory of your name. Deliver us, and forgive our sins, for your name’s sake. 79:10 Why should the heathen say, “Where is their God?” Let it be known among the heathen, before our eyes, that vengeance for your servants’ blood is being poured out. 79:11 Let the sighing of the prisoner come before you. According to the greatness of your power, preserve those who are sentenced to death. 79:12 Pay back to our neighbors seven times into their bosom their reproach with which they have reproached you, Lord. 79:13 So we, your people and sheep of your pasture, will give you thanks forever. We will praise you forever, to all generations.

Do do see "our neighbors"? So who are Israel's neighbors?

A song. A Psalm by Asaph.

83:1 God, don’t keep silent. Don’t keep silent, and don’t be still, God. 83:2 For, behold, your enemies are stirred up. Those who hate you have lifted up their heads. 83:3 They conspire with cunning against your people. They plot against your cherished ones. 83:4 “Come,” they say, “and let’s destroy them as a nation, that the name of Israel may be remembered no more.” 83:5 For they have conspired together with one mind. They form an alliance against you. 83:6 The tents of Edom and the Ishmaelites; Moab, and the Hagrites;  83:7 Gebal, Ammon, and Amalek; Philistia with the inhabitants of Tyre; 83:8 Assyria also is joined with them. They have helped the children of Lot. Selah. 83:9 Do to them as you did to Midian, as to Sisera, as to Jabin, at the river Kishon;  83:10 who perished at Endor, who became as dung for the earth. 83:11 Make their nobles like Oreb and Zeeb; yes, all their princes like Zebah and Zalmunna; 83:12 who said, “Let us take possession of God’s pasturelands.” 83:13 My God, make them like tumbleweed; like chaff before the wind. 83:14 As the fire that burns the forest, as the flame that sets the mountains on fire, 83:15 so pursue them with your tempest, and terrify them with your storm. 83:16 Fill their faces with confusion, that they may seek your name, YHWH*. 83:17 Let them be disappointed and dismayed forever. Yes, let them be confounded and perish; 83:18 that they may know that you alone, whose name is YHWH*, are the Most High over all the earth.

**YHWH not Allah.

About Zebah & Zalmunna:

Judges 8:21 Then Zebah and Zalmunna said, “Rise and fall on us; for as the man is, so is his strength.” Gideon arose, and killed Zebah and Zalmunna, and took the crescents that were on their camels’ necks. 8:22 Then the men of Israel said to Gideon, “Rule over us, both you, and your son, and your son’s son also; for you have saved us out of the hand of Midian.” 8:23 Gideon said to them, “I will not rule over you, neither shall my son rule over you. YHWH shall rule over you.” 8:24 Gideon said to them, “I would make a request of you, that you would give me every man the earrings of his spoil.” (For they had golden earrings, because they were Ishmaelites).

And that is what Yeshua will do when he returns, he will kill the AC & his army and take away all their crescents (i.e. abolish the "one world religion" - Islam). The crescent is the symbol of Islam, as well as the symbol of the moon god the pre-Islamic Arabs (including the Midianites & Arabs of Muhammad's day) used to worship. Allah is actually the same old moon god (Baal) repackaged by Muhammad in monotheistic format. Nothing's changed, Israel's ancient enemies are still her enemies today.

[thinker]

Dear Teleiosis,

Sorry, apparantly I did not explain enough to make my point clear, because the point was clearly missed. 

First there was quite a passage of years between when Nebuchadnezzar had his dream (troubling him, not Daniel per se) and when Daniel started receiving his own dreams/visions relative to Israel.

Second, just because Nebuchadnezzar had a dream about pagan nations and it is recorded in the same Book of Daniel and both revelations happened within Daniel's life time it by no means makes any of Daniel's dreams (relative to Israel) date backwards nor applicable to Nebuchadnezzar's dream relative to historical Babylon.  To the contrary.  The phrase, "that will come" dating from the time of Daniel's visions/dreams excludes historical Babylon unequivecally.  You see Babylon was more closely tied to Jeremiah's prophecies (if I recall correctly - Daniel 9:2) relative to Israel than Daniel's beasts were.  Daniel's beasts were seeing into the future relative to kingdoms "that will rise".  Daniel did NOT say "that had already risen and then others will rise too".  And, none of Daniel's visions included the "head" (Nebuchadnezzar's statue in his dream) as a reiteration and reconnection to past revelations.  Daniel's were forward thinking from the time he received them.

I realize it may not fit your view and you certainly are not required to espouse what I am proffering...but at least consider the scriptural logic and scriptural phrasing that supports this premise...it is not too late to reconsider and reevaluate.

There is more if interest,
Take care,

does not mean

[DaDad]

Dear Thinker,

You might want to consider that the only visions which Daniel had pertained to the sequence of nations, -- not Israel. 

In addition, please note that the only way Daniel could prophesy to his kinsmen, was to don the mantle of Jeremiah.  But this 9:2 confirmation has nothing to do with the book of Jeremiah (25:12 or other), but rather another "book".  --  Ref. the acutal "Solomon-wisdom", biyn; as opposed to the simple reading, shama, which your interpretation would dictate.


WBR,
DD

[chalkstk]

Maryam,

Not for this particular prophecy, otherwise it would've been Daniel who had the dream instead of Nebuchadnezzar. Again, Nebuchadnezzar was concerned about the future of his kingdom:

Wow!
Great post and much food for thought. I had recently thought the iron and the clay in the toes was revived Rome and Ishmael's descendents. But I always thought or was taught that Rome was the two legs.

The texts were great and I never would have put them together as you have laid them out.

Thx, and I will study this somemore.

How do you read John's "one is" from the Rev. What kingdom is he speaking of if not Rome of his day?

Years ago there was a cartoon that showed a fish swimming across the screen. Then right behind it came another larger one who completely swallowed the smaller fish in one gulp. Then another larger and another till the last fish consumed the previous ones.

This is the way I saw Neb's statue...............each following kingdom swallowing the one before it. But the cultures and the people of those kingdoms were still within the conglomorate.

And remember............Assyria was the preceeding kingdom that Neb must have conquered before the statue vision. Assyria had taken Israel before this. As Israel survived, so must Assyria though it was within Babylon when Neb came on the scene.
 
This may seem a weak analogy, but it worked for me.

Here is the text that led me to Ishmael in the toes.................

Gen 17:20 And as for Ishmael , I have heard thee: Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation.
KJV

Gen 16:11 And the angel of the LORD said unto her, Behold, thou art with child, and shalt bear a son, and shalt call his name Ishmael ; because the LORD hath heard thy affliction.

12 And he will be a wild man; his hand will be against every man, and every man's hand against him; and he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren.KJV

Thoughts?

YBIC,
Frankie

[DaDad]

Hi Chalkstk,

You might want to be aware that Nebuchadnezzar's Babylonian Empire inference transcends that single empire.  Daniel 8 makes it clear that this "metropolis" model is conformed to by ALL subsequent empires. Thus although the dream was of that king, it equally effects the head, breast, belly, legs, and feet.

With Best Regards,
DD

[thinker]

Dear DD,

Actually, you are not misleading the well read student of Daniel's prophecies, but for those who may be less informed, you statement is untrue and therefore, should NOT be considered. 

First example, the four beasts dream (Daniel 7) directly relates to Israel (Daniel 7:23-27).   

Second example, the ram and goat dream (Daniel 8) directly relates to Israel (Daniel 8:24-26).

Third example, the Gabriel visitation (Daniel 9:20-27) directly relates to Israel (Daniel 9:24-27).

Fourth example, the vision of a man (Daniel 10:1-12:13) directly relates to Israel (Daniel 11:31-35; 12:1, 7, 11-13).

And most of these visions/dreams and visitations that precipitated Daniel's prophecies to his own people (kinsmen) were NOT under the mantle of Jeremiah (i.e., Chp 7, 8, 10, 11, & 12).

Finally, you allude to a Jeremiah citation (Jeremiah 25) that I did not mention...so I am not sure where that is all coming from...but no matter...you missed the point and seem to be attempting to create another side show.  Let's stay focused if you can on the subject at hand.

Take care,

[tom]

hello

Could Ismael's descendants have been the tent dwellers of the desert, the Bedouin Tribes that roamed far and wide who were against everybody with their waring nature and who also lived in the presences/amongst their brethren as they continually moved in search of grass for their herds/flocks.  They were not seen because of their transient lifestyle as having a particular area of land that they could call their own or possess.

It is just a thought

Tom   

[Maryam]

Maryam,

Not for this particular prophecy, otherwise it would've been Daniel who had the dream instead of Nebuchadnezzar. Again, Nebuchadnezzar was concerned about the future of his kingdom:

Wow!
Great post and much food for thought. I had recently thought the iron and the clay in the toes was revived Rome and Ishmael's descendents. But I always thought or was taught that Rome was the two legs.

The texts were great and I never would have put them together as you have laid them out.

Thx, and I will study this somemore.

Cool, glad you enjoyed it. And yes do look further into this, this is great website to get you started: www.beastoftheeast.org.

How do you read John's "one is" from the Rev. What kingdom is he speaking of if not Rome of his day?

I have always believed that the "one is" is the Roman empire, but bear in mind that Rome is the 6th head NOT the 7th head, which was the "other" that "had not yet come". How can Rome be both the 6th & 7th head? And the AC's kingdom is the 8th head, not the 7th head but is of the 7. The empire that came after Rome was the Islamic Caliphate which officially conquered the Roman empire when they captured Constantinople (which was the seat of power for the emporers at the time). The major problem is that most prophecy teachers do not teach the real history of the Roman empire. The truth is the "Byzantine empire" (an artificial 19th century designation) is the Roman empire, not a separate unrelated empire (but the Holy Roman Empire was a separate unrelated empire). Constantine had already relocated the official throne of the emporers to Byzantium (later called Constantinople) before the empire permanently divided, and the city of Rome itself ceased to be the capital long before this. Although the western half was taken by Visigoths, the empire itself did not fall because the throne was in Constantinople. The eastern half continued for just over 1000 years until it finally fell to the Ottoman Turks. Rome is dead, and has been dead for nearly 500 years now, it will NEVER rise again.

However there is now a new view being presented that the Parthian Persian empire (which was in power the same time as Rome) was actually the 6th head, you can read about it here: http://www.beastfromtheeast.org/Parthian_Empire.html. So far what has been presented isn't enough for me to change my view though I will certainly reconsider it as research develops. It's going to be a tough one because very little is known about the Parthians.

Years ago there was a cartoon that showed a fish swimming across the screen. Then right behind it came another larger one who completely swallowed the smaller fish in one gulp. Then another larger and another till the last fish consumed the previous ones.

This is the way I saw Neb's statue...............each following kingdom swallowing the one before it. But the cultures and the people of those kingdoms were still within the conglomorate.

You're on the right track there, as Scripture states that the 4th kingdom will crush the other 3 and Rome did not do this. The Islamic Caliphate on the other had did swallow up all the territories of the previous kingdoms and more.

And remember............Assyria was the preceeding kingdom that Neb must have conquered before the statue vision. Assyria had taken Israel before this. As Israel survived, so must Assyria though it was within Babylon when Neb came on the scene.

This may seem a weak analogy, but it worked for me.

I don't think it's weak analogy, looks like you're grasping all this pretty well.

Here is the text that led me to Ishmael in the toes.................

Gen 17:20 And as for Ishmael , I have heard thee: Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation.
KJV

Gen 16:11 And the angel of the LORD said unto her, Behold, thou art with child, and shalt bear a son, and shalt call his name Ishmael ; because the LORD hath heard thy affliction.

12 And he will be a wild man; his hand will be against every man, and every man's hand against him; and he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren.KJV

Thoughts?

YBIC,
Frankie

Oh yes, the nature of Ishmael's descendants, good observation there with which I agree. And may I add that they're not going anywhere and that they're not going to change.

[DaDad]

Dear DD,

Actually, you are not misleading the well read student of Daniel's prophecies, but for those who may be less informed, you statement is untrue and therefore, should NOT be considered. 

First example, the four beasts dream (Daniel 7) directly relates to Israel (Daniel 7:23-27).  

Second example, the ram and goat dream (Daniel 8) directly relates to Israel (Daniel 8:24-26).

Third example, the Gabriel visitation (Daniel 9:20-27) directly relates to Israel (Daniel 9:24-27).

Fourth example, the vision of a man (Daniel 10:1-12:13) directly relates to Israel (Daniel 11:31-35; 12:1, 7, 11-13).

And most of these visions/dreams and visitations that precipitated Daniel's prophecies to his own people (kinsmen) were NOT under the mantle of Jeremiah (i.e., Chp 7, 8, 10, 11, & 12).

Finally, you allude to a Jeremiah citation (Jeremiah 25) that I did not mention...so I am not sure where that is all coming from...but no matter...you missed the point and seem to be attempting to create another side show.  Let's stay focused if you can on the subject at hand.

Take care,

Dear Thinker,

Please allow me to propose that the prophecies of Daniel ALL relate to the Nations of the earth; -- with the exception of chapter 9, wherein Daniel prophecied to the Jews under the mantle of Jeremiah.  And to suggest otherwise would seem to demonstrate a disregard for both scripture and history.

And to clarify, -- your reference to 9:2 and thereby ~Jeremiah 25:12 is incorrect in the basic textural premise.  Specifically, 9:2 points to the book of Psalms.



Per the above, as you attempt to assess the "PEOPLE of the Ruler to come", you might first identify the United Nations and then extrapolate to those participant groups.


With Best Regards,
DD

[chalkstk]

Hi Maryam,

Cool, glad you enjoyed it. And yes do look further into this, this is great website to get you started: www.beastoftheeast.org.

Clicked on the link and it brought up some Beast of the east baseball tournament???

Frankie

[thinker]

Maryam,

Could you remind me what your acronym AC stands for?  I am mostly in agreement with what you have written, but am unsure about some since I am not sure about your AC acronym.  Thanks

DD,

I find it more helpful if you present your comments in full thoughts...I cannot read you mind and therefore your comments are usually incoherent...I prefer not to guess.  So I can only address what seems to be more coherent than the others.

It appears that you either misunderstand my earlier posting, or are avoiding what you earlier wrote that precipitated my comments in the first place.  I was addressing what you said,

"You might want to consider that the only visions which Daniel had pertained to the sequence of nations, -- not Israel."

So I responded by showing that your comment was dramatically unscriptural.  However, my response did not imply nor state that Daniel's visions/dreams excluded the prophetic history of heathen nations.  Rather, that the histories of heathen nations directly pertain to Israel as shown in the scriptural citations provided. 

And further that Daniel wrote independent of Jeremiah's "mantle". 

And, I did not imply any particular Biblical source relative to Jeremiah's specific prophecy, rather only what is recorded in Daniel 9:2 (not Jeremiah, Psalms or extra-Biblical sources...that was your assumption and addition).  You will have to do a little better, if you can, which I am hoping for.

And finally, I will not comment on your "UN" comment since your comment is unclear and not a complete thought.  Help me out and then maybe I can comment.

Take care,

[Maryam]

Hi Maryam,

Cool, glad you enjoyed it. And yes do look further into this, this is great website to get you started: www.beastoftheeast.org.

Clicked on the link and it brought up some Beast of the east baseball tournament???

Frankie

Oh my! I typed the link wrong, sorry that's the first time it's happened, this is the site: http://www.beastfromtheeast.org/

Maryam,

Could you remind me what your acronym AC stands for?  I am mostly in agreement with what you have written, but am unsure about some since I am not sure about your AC acronym.  Thanks

AC = Antichrist (though I usually call him the anti-Messiah).

[chalkstk]

Hi Sister Maryam,

Oh my! I typed the link wrong, sorry that's the first time it's happened, this is the site: http://www.beastfromtheeast.org/

Got it now. Quite a site. Lots to read and ponder. Awhile back I came to the conclusion that the "kings of the east" was not China as most contend, but Islamic nations. No one seemed to want to hear.

As we get closer to the end, "knowledge is increasing". Not so much tecnical though it is there also, but knowledge of END THINGS. PTL!

Thx again for the site.

YBIC,
Frankie