The PEOPLE of the Ruler to come.

[thinker]

Hi Maryam,

Thanks...Yes, the I agree, the 8th is the "beast's" kingdom...however, I might add ...the "Caliphate" seems to be meagerly applicable for the 7th, since Ottoman was not really accepted as being one of the Caliphs (he was self appointed, contrary to the caliphate traditions).  In other words, I think if I say the Ottoman Empire was the 7th, I would feel more confident on the matter (technically speaking).

I am curious what resurrected kingdom (of the first seven) do you think the 8th Kingdom is?

Take care,

[Maryam]

Hi Sister Maryam,

Oh my! I typed the link wrong, sorry that's the first time it's happened, this is the site:
http://www.beastfromtheeast.org/

Got it now. Quite a site. Lots to read and ponder. Awhile back I came to the conclusion that the “kings of the east” was not China as most contend, but Islamic nations. No one seemed to want to hear.

As we get closer to the end, “knowledge is increasing”. Not so much tecnical though it is there also, but knowledge of END THINGS. PTL!

Thx again for the site.

YBIC,

Frankie

Yes that is correct, “the kings of the east” refers to the Islamic nations east of the Euphrates, and has nothing to do with the Chinese, neither does that 2 million man army. Here’s why:

{Matthew 2:1-} Now when Yeshua was born in Bethlehem of Judea in the days of Herod the king, Magi came from the east to Jerusalem and said, “Where is the king of the Jews who was born? For we have seen his star in the east and we have come to worship him.”

Never forget that John was a Jew from 1st century Palestine, it doesn’t matter what we call “the east” today, it matters what the citizens of the Roman empire called the “the east” back then. For a Roman citizen “the east” was the region east of the Euphrates – i.e. the Parthian empire. The Magi were Zoroastrian priests from Mesopotamia & Persia:

{Revelation 16:12} And the sixth angel poured his bowl on the great river, Euphrates, and its water dried up to prepare the road for the kings of the east.

See the unmistakable connection between “the kings of the east” and “the great river, Euphrates”? The Euphrates river was considered the border which divided the west (Roman empire) from the east (Parthian empire), the Parthian empire stretched from Mesopotamia to Xian (north-western China) & the ‘stans’, and this entire region is Muslim today (China itself has no less than 100 million Muslims in the Xian region).

These nations (which will probably be led by Iran) have no problem rounding up an army of 2 million jihadists to attack Israel (al-Qaida is quite active in some of these parts, eg: Afghanistan), in actual fact this is exactly what is taught in Islamic eschatology:

The Army of Black Flags

The Mahdi’s ascendancy to power is said to be preceded by an army from the east who will be carrying black flags or banners of war.  Sheikh Kabbani states:

Hadith indicate that black flags coming from the area of Khorasan will signify the appearance of the Mahdi is nigh.  Khorasan is in todays Iran, and some scholars have said that this hadith means when the black flags appear from Central Asia, i.e. in the direction of Khorasan, then the appearance of the Mahdi is imminent. 17

Another tradition states that:

The Messenger of Allah said: The black banners will come from the East and their hearts will be as firm as iron.  Whoever hears of them should join them and give allegiance, even if it means crawling across snow. 18

In Islam there are two flags.  One is white and one is black.  Written across both flags in Arabic are the words, “There is no God but Allah and Muhammad is his Messenger”.  The white flag is called Al-Liwaa and serves as the sign for the leader of the Muslim army and is the flag of the Islamic State.  The black flag is called Ar-Raya and is used by the Muslim army. It is also called the flag of jihad, and is carried into battle.  One flag is governmental and the other is a military flag. 19

When Muhammad returned to his home city of Mecca after being exiled for eight years, he returned as a conqueror.  With him were ten thousand Muslim soldiers.  They carried with them black flags.  On the flags was one word written in Arabic: punishment. 20 

I was once talking to a group of young Muslim men and asking them some questions.  I asked them if the obvious superior militaries of America and Israel compared to the militaries of any Islamic nations were a source of difficulty for many Muslims.  One of these men then became very angry at my question and snapped out, “You Americans and Zionists better get ready, because the black flags are coming!”  At the time, I had no idea what he was talking about.  Later I learned the meaning. 

The Conquering Of Israel

Islamic tradition pictures the Mahdi as joining with the army of Muslim warriors carrying black flags.  The Mahdi will then lead this army to Israel and re-conquer it for Islam.  The Jews will be slaughtered until very few remain and Jerusalem will become the location of the Mahdi’s rule over the Earth. 

Rasulullah [Muhammad] said: “Armies carrying black flags will come from Khorasan. No power will be able to stop them and they will finally reach Eela (Baitul Maqdas in Jerusalem) where they will erect their flags.” 21

It is important to note here the reference above to “Baitul Maqdas”.  In Arabic this means “the holy house”.  This is referring to the Dome of the Rock Mosque and is located on the Temple Mount in Jerusalem. 

In a particularly venomous manner, Egyptian authors, Muhammad ibn Izzat and Muhammd ‘Arif comment on the above tradition:

The Mahdi will be victorious and eradicate those pigs and dogs and the idols of this time so that there will once more be a caliphate based on prophethood as the hadith states… Jerusalem will be the location of the rightly guided caliphate and the center of Islamic rule, which will be headed by Imam al-Mahdi… That will abolish the leadership of the Jews… and put an end to the domination of the Satans who spit evil into people and cause corruption in the earth, making them slaves of false idols and ruling the world by laws other than the Shari’ah [Islamic Law] of the Lord of the worlds. (Emphasis mine) 22

There is a very famous tradition that is often quoted throughout the Islamic world that speaks of the Mahdi’s military campaign against Israel.  The tradition is both sickening and very sobering:

The Prophet said… The last hour would not come unless the Muslims will fight against the Jews and the Muslims would kill them until the Jews would hide themselves behind a stone or a tree and a stone or a tree would say: Muslim, or the servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me; come and kill him… (Emphasis mine) 23

(The Mahdi: Islam’s Awaited Messiah, Will Islam be Our Future? by Joel Richardson)

Hi Maryam,
Thanks...Yes, the I agree, the 8th is the “beast's” kingdom...however, I might add ...the “Caliphate” seems to be meagerly applicable for the 7th, since Ottoman was not really accepted as being one of the Caliphs (he was self appointed, contrary to the caliphate traditions).  In other words, I think if I say the Ottoman Empire was the 7th, I would feel more confident on the matter (technically speaking).

While Othman (the Turk) wasn’t one of the “rightly guided Caliphs” and wasn’t elected as caliph by the Ummah, the Ottoman empire is still considered a caliphate. The same can be said for the Umayyid & Abbasid dynasties, because even though they weren’t elected as caliph by the Ummah, they are still considered caliphates by Muslim historians because they ruled according to Shari’ah. When Ataturk (Mustafa Kemal) declared Turkey a republic in 1924, Muslims considered it the end of the Caliphate.

So it is my opinion that the 7th head is the Islamic Caliphate in its entirety (including all its manifestations & dynasties) beginning with Abu Bakr, and ending with the Ottoman Turks. The highlights of this kingdom for prophecy studies include the conquest of Jerusalem (under Umar ibn al-Khattab, AD 637) and the conquest of Constantinople, the official fall of the Roman empire (under Mehmet II, AD 1453)

I am curious what resurrected kingdom (of the first seven) do you think the 8th Kingdom is?

Take care,

Definitely the 7th kingdom – the Islamic Caliphate. For several reasons:

a) The lion-bear-leopard make-up of the 8th kingdom. Only the Islamic Caliphate conquered ALL the territories of the Babylonian, Persian & Hellenic empires and almost all these territories are still Muslim today, and that is not about to change anytime soon.

b) Both the king and his subjects behave like Muslims.

c) In Aramaic idiom (Aramaic is definitely the original language of Revelation), the word for “seven” (sheba) can mean “seventh”:

{Revelation 17:11} And the beast that was and is not, he is the eighth yet is also of the seven, and goes to destruction.

Or:

{Revelation 17:11} And the beast that was and is not, he is the eighth yet is also the seventh and goes to destruction.

[thinker]

Greetings Maryam,

Yes, I too write in my books that the "Calipohate" can be considered as the 7th Head (I have written all you have mentioned and much more), but technically speaking, it was Ottoman who conquered all the regions you indicated, and it is Ottoman that is getting the credit for gaining world empire status (and his contributions to Islam) and getting a monument in Jerusalem near the Temple Mound (approved by the Wakf) because of it (not the Caliphate), and it was he that settled his royal tents between the seas (Istanbul).  So yes, I agree to some degree, but I find details must accompany the use of term Caliphate, when implying it is the 7th Head (as it relates to Ottoman).

I am still left wondering your identify of the 8th Kingdom (one of the seven that is resurrected) that according to John predates Rome.

Take care,

[Maryam]

Shalom Thinker,

Greetings Maryam,
Yes, I too write in my books that the "Calipohate" can be considered as the 7th Head (I have written all you have mentioned and much more), but technically speaking, it was Ottoman who conquered all the regions you indicated, and it is Ottoman that is getting the credit for gaining world empire status (and his contributions to Islam) and getting a monument in Jerusalem near the Temple Mound (approved by the Wakf) because of it (not the Caliphate), and it was he that settled his royal tents between the seas (Istanbul).  So yes, I agree to some degree, but I find details must accompany the use of term Caliphate, when implying it is the 7th Head (as it relates to Ottoman).

The Ottoman empire is considered by most Muslim historians to be the last caliphate, so I consider it the final manifestation of the Islamic Caliphate. The problem I have with seeing the Ottoman empire exclusively as the 7th head is the fact that the Ottomans never conquered Persia. At that time Persia was under the rule of the Safavid dynasty, a Shi’ite caliphate under Shah Ismail that later came under the Pahlavi dynasty which ruled Iran until the Islamic Revolution in 1979. Revelation 13 includes the bear in the make-up of the beast, which is why I see the 7th head as the Islamic Caliphate in its entirety – although Iran was never part of the Ottoman empire, it did come under Islamic rule, also Iran is mentioned in other end times passages in the Tanakh, so Iran has to be part of the picture. And of course we cannot forget this kingdom’s relationship to the Holy Land, Muslims have arguably been responsible for more wars fought in that place than any other peoples (“there’ll be wars and desolations until the end”).

Hope this explanation was helpful.

I am still left wondering your identify of the 8th Kingdom (one of the seven that is resurrected) that according to John predates Rome.
Take care,

Oh boy this is gonna be difficult to explain but I’ll try my best, I’ll start by quoting the passage in question:

{Revelation 17:8-11} The beast that you saw: it was, and is not, and is about to come up from the bottomless pit, and is destined for destruction… Here is insight for him who has wisdom: The seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman sits. And they are seven kings, five have fallen, one is, and the other has not yet come… And the beast that was and is not, he is the eighth, and is also of the seven (or: is also the seventh), and is destined for destruction.

First let me set the scene: the angel takes John to observe the woman and the beast. The time the vision is set in is not the 1st century (John’s day) but the time when one of those past 7 heads (empires) is about to be “resurrected” (“and is about to come up from the bottomless pit”).

So with this in mind, here’s what I believe the angel is saying:

The beast “was” – there was a time when the beast was ruling, the beast is one of those 7 heads, because:

{Revelation 13:3} And one of his heads was as wounded to death and the deadly wound was healed …

“and is not” – the head that’s being “revived” is not the Roman empire because the Roman empire is the “one” that “is” (verse 10). Revived Roman Empire theorists listen up:

The Roman empire is the 6th head, it is NOT the 7th head because the angel says that another must come after it, and it is NOT the 8th head because the angel emphatically says “and IS NOT”. So the angel hasn’t explicitly said which kingdom will come back to life, but he has explicitly said which one will NOT.

So that leaves us with the following options:

Egyptian empire (1st head), Assyrian empire (2nd head), Babylonian empire (3rd head), Persian empire (4th head), Hellenic empire (5th head), Islamic Caliphate (7th head).

For me, it can only be the Islamic Caliphate, because:

a) Rev. 13 tells us that the beast is composite of previous beasts (lion, bear & leopard).

b) In Daniel 2, when the rock strikes the feet & toes, the entire statue comes tumbling down, which also indicates that the final kingdom is a composite of previous kingdoms.

c) We are told that only one head is resurrected, the only kingdom that swallowed up all the previous kingdoms is the 7th head (Islamic Caliphate), so the 7th head was a composite of the previous kingdoms, and because the 8th head is also a composite of previous kingdoms (13:1), it can only mean that the 7th head is the one that will be “revived”.

d) And of course the Aramaic “sheba” can be translated as “seventh” idiomatically.

This is the only way I can reconcile Rev. 17 with Rev. 13, Dan. 2 & Dan. 7, if the 7th head (Islamic Caliphate) is resurrected as the 8th head (Mahdi’s kingdom).

[DaDad]

To All,

Please be aware that the Revelation 17 seven mountains/kings are delineated by chronology:

1. has fallen
2. has fallen
3. has fallen
4. has fallen
5. has fallen

6. one is

7. one is yet to come


I would propose that the 8th ("was and is not"), is not a chronology, -- but rather a depiction of authority.


WBR,
DD

[thinker]

Hi Maryam,

Here is the answer to your dilema.  The resurrected empire is Ancient Persia, which is "one of the seven", it fits as one that "once was" (must be before the time of John), which means it also predates Islam since Islam came after John.  Rome is excluded by the "one is" and the Caliphate (or the Ottoman) is excluded by the "who once was" and also because it follwed John (the 7th) and must be one of the first five.  In other words, we are only left with the first five.  I developed and elimination matrix if interested. 

You answered your own dilema but did not realize it.  You see, you are correct that Rome is not the eighth and you are also correct that Iran must be included somehow.  Turkey (formerly called Persia) was conquered by Ottoman and Persia (now Iran) desolated Jerusalem and gave religious freedom to the Jews (614 AD) as did Cyrus and Darius (which the current day Iranians brag about--in a sort of double-tongued way).

If you look at the first five you will notice that none of Daniel's dreams/visions relative to Israel discussed Egypt, Assyria or Babylon (and none of these three are in a dominating position of their former Empires, not even close and no time left to do so and it is doubtful the world will allow it anyway) which leaves you with only two: Persia and Greece.  Since we are running out of time, Greece has not been and is not and is likely not to be in a position of dominance over its former Empire (and it is doubtful they have the will or military might to do so nor would the world allow them to do so).  Furthermore, Greece (Greek Orthodox) does not hate the Jews....therefore, it must be excluded.

Thus all we have left is Persia.  I am not talking about Iran (formerly named Persia).  Iran is the baby two-horned lamb (baby male ram) mentioned by John...it was Daniel's Medo/Peria when it was in its infancy stage, before it became a world Empire.

So how does this Persian Empire (both political and religious) exist?  Glad you asked.  By and through the OIC, which geographically meets and exceeds its former Empire (57 member states).  Thus, you have both the religious side (OIC comprised of only Muslims) and the political side (OIC as an organization that has "kings" without kingdoms...they are on their ninth "king", President).  Islam is certainly a "foreign god" (Zoroastrianism being the god of his fathers), but it still exists in Iran.  None the less, geographically and politically speaking the OIC is becoming bigger and stronger than historical Medo/Persia.

By calling the Caliphate the 7th, you eliminate it (according to John) since it was post John and did not exist as a World Empire prior to John--a double jeapordy.  But if you indicate Ottoman, that Empire is dead and gone, is not one of the first five and is not going to be at play as the 8th.  But recognizing that the "people" of the "prince" that is to come are Muslims and that the "prince" will mostly likely be a Muslim, it does not create a problem with either of John's or Daniel's dreams/visions, because Islam is not Ottoman nor is Ottoman Islam (even though he-Ottoman-may have held the Islamic faith). And since there is no other representation of any former first five Empires outside of the OIC, then we can see how it works...and Iran (two-horned lamb) has intimate ties and clout with the OIC.

It is also interesting to note that Iran is resurrecting some of Persia's old icons (although contrary to Islamic beliefs).

I realize this is a very brief summary since a full explanation of how and why it works completely would be far too large and may tire most readers.

Take care,

[Maryam]

Hi Maryam,

Here is the answer to your dilema.  The resurrected empire is Ancient Persia, which is "one of the seven", it fits as one that "once was" (must be before the time of John), which means it also predates Islam since Islam came after John.  Rome is excluded by the "one is" and the Caliphate (or the Ottoman) is excluded by the "who once was" and also because it follwed John (the 7th) and must be one of the first five.  In other words, we are only left with the first five.  I developed and elimination matrix if interested.

Sure, I’m interested to see the elimination matrix you’ve developed, by all means post it. I guess what makes the difference in our conclusions is how we interpret that the beast “once was”. You suggest that “once was” means that it existed before John, while what I’m suggesting is that while John had this vision in the 1st century, the vision itself is set in last days, just before the beast is about to rise to power, so that would be after all 7 empires have already ruled. In effect the angel is taking John “in spirit” into the future, to the time just before the 8th kingdom is about rise. And so I interpret “once was” to mean that it’s an empire that “was” in power, but hasn’t been for some time and is NOW (cause the vision is set in the last days, instead of the 1st century) about to rise to power, “arise from the bottomless pit” (i.e. come back to life). Which will make any one of those 7 empires (except Rome), eligible to come back as the 8th empire.

Of course the reading “was, and is not, and is about…” does allow for your suggestion, which is a plausible one and you’re not the first one to share this theory with me.

You answered your own dilema but did not realize it.  You see, you are correct that Rome is not the eighth and you are also correct that Iran must be included somehow.  Turkey (formerly called Persia) was conquered by Ottoman and Persia (now Iran) desolated Jerusalem and gave religious freedom to the Jews (614 AD) as did Cyrus and Darius (which the current day Iranians brag about--in a sort of double-tongued way).

Oh tell me about it! They brag that their ancestors freed the Jews from captivity and at the same time continuously plot to destroy them.

If you look at the first five you will notice that none of Daniel's dreams/visions relative to Israel discussed Egypt, Assyria or Babylon

That is true, but Egypt and Assyria are still significant in regard to Israel’s past. The Israelites were enslaved by the Egyptians before they entered the promised land and the Assyrians exiled the 10 northern tribes. Their inclusion as the first 2 heads is not by accident as Egypt & Assyria are mentioned in many Tanakh prophecies concerning the “day of YHWH”.

(and none of these three are in a dominating position of their former Empires, not even close and no time left to do so and it is doubtful the world will allow it anyway) which leaves you with only two: Persia and Greece.  Since we are running out of time, Greece has not been and is not and is likely not to be in a position of dominance over its former Empire (and it is doubtful they have the will or military might to do so nor would the world allow them to do so).  Furthermore, Greece (Greek Orthodox) does not hate the Jews....therefore, it must be excluded.

I can’t really speak for modern Egypt & “Assyria” (which we would call Iraq/Kurdistan today) but I can speak for modern Greece, as I am Greek and a citizen of that country:

No, we’ll never become the “great nation” we once were, that is a certainty. The interesting thing is that military service is still compulsory in my country and we almost went to war with Turkey as recently as 1996 because they tried to take some of our islands. But in reality our forces are no match for the Turkish forces, let alone a coalition of Muslim forces from Middle East, we and our Cypriot brethren still haven’t managed to drive the Turkish forces out of northern Cyprus. When we won our independence from the Ottomans we were left with a tiny portion of what we used to rule, not to mention the great expulsion of Greeks (which included my grandparents) from Asia Minor in the 1920s.

As for the Greeks not hating the Jews…I’m afraid that’s not true, most Greeks are anti-Semitic and support the Palestinians, but this mentality is very common among nations that were once under Islamic dhimnitude, 400 years under Ottoman rule was plenty of time for the Muslims to indoctrinate the Greek Orthodox Christians with anti-Semitic hate speech. But while this is so, Greece does not actually plot to destroy Israel, many nations today are anti-Semitic BUT it’s only the Muslim nations that (on top of that) plot to destroy Israel, that’s why Psalm 83 only lists Muslim nations, and that’s why they are the only nations that make-up the 8th kingdom.

There were some bright spots though, the Greek government as well as the Greek Orthodox Church did protect the Jews from the Nazis.

Thus all we have left is Persia.  I am not talking about Iran (formerly named Persia).  Iran is the baby two-horned lamb (baby male ram) mentioned by John...it was Daniel's Medo/Peria when it was in its infancy stage, before it became a world Empire.

So how does this Persian Empire (both political and religious) exist?  Glad you asked.  By and through the OIC, which geographically meets and exceeds its former Empire (57 member states).  Thus, you have both the religious side (OIC comprised of only Muslims) and the political side (OIC as an organization that has "kings" without kingdoms...they are on their ninth "king", President).  Islam is certainly a "foreign god" (Zoroastrianism being the god of his fathers), but it still exists in Iran.  None the less, geographically and politically speaking the OIC is becoming bigger and stronger than historical Medo/Persia.

Interestingly the pre-Islamic Persians didn’t think much of the Arabs or their Allah (to put it mildly) as this exchange between Yazdgrid III & Caliph Umar demonstrates:

From: Umar ibn al-Khattab, Khalifa al-Muslamin
To: Yazdgird III, Shâh of the Persians

Yazdgird, I do not see a prosperous future for you and your nation, unless you accept my offer and commit Bei’at (accept Islam and join with the Caliphate). Once upon a time your land ruled half the known world but what has it come down to now? Your troops are defeated on all fronts and your nation is bound to collapse.

I offer you a way to redeem yourself. Start praying to the mono God, the single union God, the only God who created everything in the universe. We bring you and the world His message, He who is the true God. Stop your fire worship, command your nation to stop their fire worship which is false; join us by joining the truth. Worship Allah the only true God, the creator of universe. Worship Allah and accept Islam as your salvation. End your pagan ways and your false worship now, and convert to Islam so you can accept Allahu Akbar as your saviour. By doing so, you will find the only way to your survival and peace for Persians. If you know what is best for the Ajam (Arabic term for Persians meaning retarded and weird), you will choose this path. Bei’at is the only way.

Allahu Akbar
Umar ibn al-Khattab, Khalifa al-Muslamin


From: Yazdgird III, Shâh of the Persians
To: Umar Ibn Al-Khatab, Khalifa of the Tâzis (Persian term for Arabs, meaning “hound dogs”)

In the name of Ahura Mazda, creator of life and wisdom. You in your letter wrote that you want to direct us towards your god, Allahu Akbar, without having the true knowledge of who we are and what we worship! It is amazing that you occupy the position of Khalifa (Ruler) of the Tâzis, yet your knowledge is the same as a lowly Tâzi rambler, roaming in deserts of Tâzistan (Arabia), the same as a desert tribal man!

Little man, you offer for me to worship the united and single God without knowing that it has been thousands of years that Persians worship the mono God and they pray to Him five times a day! In this land of culture and art this has been the normal path of life for years. When we established the tradition of hospitality and good deeds in the world and we waved the flag of ‘Good Thoughts, Good Words, Good Deeds’ in our hands, you and your ancestors were roaming the deserts, eating lizards for you had nothing else to feed yourselves and burying your innocent daughters alive!

Tâzis have no value for God’s creatures! You behead God’s children, even the prisoners of war, rape women, bury your daughters alive, hijack caravans, mass murder, kidnap people’s wives and steal their property! Your hearts are made of stone – we condemn all these evils which you do! How can you teach us godly ways when you commit these atrocities?

You tell me to stop my fire worship! We, Persians see the love of the creator and power of the inventor in the light of the sun and warmth of fire. Light and warmth of the sun and fire makes us see the light of truth and warmness our hearts to the creator and to one another. It helps us to be kind to one another, it enlightens us and makes us to keep Mazda’s Flame, alive in our hearts.

Our lord is Ahura Mazda and it is strange that you people also, just discovered Him and named Him Allahu Akbar! But we are not the same as you, we are not on the same level as you. We help other human beings, we spread love among humanity, we spread good throughout the earth, we have been spreading our culture but in respect for other cultures throughout the whole world for thousands of years, yet you in the name of Allah invade other men’s lands! You mass murder the people, create famine, fear and poverty for others, you create evil in the name of Allah. Who is responsible for all this catastrophe? Is it Allah who commands you to murder, pillage and destroy? Is it you the followers of Allah who do this in his name? Or is it both?

You have risen from heat of the deserts and burnt out infertile lands with no resources, you want to teach people the love of God by your military campaigns and the power of your swords! You are desert savages, yet you want to teach urban people like us who lived in the cities for thousands of years, the love of God! We have thousands of years of culture behind us, a powerful tool indeed! Tell us; With all your military campaigns, barbarianism, murder and pillage in the name of Allahu Akbar, what have you taught to this Muslim Army? What knowledge have you taught the Muslims that you also insist on teaching it to non-Muslims? What culture have you learned from your Allah, now that you want to force-teach it to others?

Alas, Oh Alas...... that today our Persian armies of Ahura have been defeated from your recently Allah worshiping armies; Now our people have to worship the same God, the same five times a day, but forced by the sword to call Him Allah and pray to Him in Arabic, cause your Allah only understands Arabic! I suggest you and your gang of bandits pack up and move back to your deserts where they are used to living. Take them back where they are used to the burning heat of the sun, tribal life, eating lizards and drinking camel milk. I forbid you to let your band of thieves loose in our fertile lands, civilized cities and our glorious nation. Don’t turn these beasts with hearts of stone loose, to mass murder our people, kidnap our women and children, rape our wives and send our daughters to Mecca as slaves! Don’t let them commit these crimes in the name of Allahu Akbar, put a stop to your criminal behaviour!

Persians are forgiving, warm, hospitable, and decent people and everywhere they went, they have spread seeds of friendship, love, knowledge and truth; therefore, they shall not punish you and your people for your pirate ways and criminal acts. I beg you to remain with your Allahu Akbar in your deserts and do not move close to our civilized cities, for your beliefs are much fearful and your behaviour is most barbaric!

Yazdgird III, Shâh of the Persians

By calling the Caliphate the 7th, you eliminate it (according to John) since it was post John and did not exist as a World Empire prior to John--a double jeapordy.  But if you indicate Ottoman, that Empire is dead and gone, is not one of the first five and is not going to be at play as the 8th.  But recognizing that the "people" of the "prince" that is to come are Muslims and that the "prince" will mostly likely be a Muslim, it does not create a problem with either of John's or Daniel's dreams/visions, because Islam is not Ottoman nor is Ottoman Islam (even though he-Ottoman-may have held the Islamic faith). And since there is no other representation of any former first five Empires outside of the OIC, then we can see how it works...and Iran (two-horned lamb) has intimate ties and clout with the OIC.

It is also interesting to note that Iran is resurrecting some of Persia's old icons (although contrary to Islamic beliefs).

I realize this is a very brief summary since a full explanation of how and why it works completely would be far too large and may tire most readers.

Take care,

Ok, I sort of see where you’re going with this, though can you tell me what OIC stands for? And how do we fit what you’ve suggested with the fact that all 7 heads are attached to the beast (the 8th)?

[Charles Baker]

Dear Maryam:

Re. your post to Thinker.

Maryam --  Interestingly the pre-Islamic Persians didn’t think much of the Arabs or their Allah (to put it mildly) as this exchange between Yazdgrid III & Caliph Umar demonstrates:

Charlie -- When did that exchange take place, Maryam? 

Modern day Persians, the Irani's, certainly do not thihk as did the pre-Islamic Persians.

As I see it.

God Bless you.  Charlie.

[Maryam]

Hey Charlie,

Quote from Daniel Pipes blog:

Submitted by Sam (Turkey), Jul 14, 2006 at 02:39

letter from Yazdgird III (632 AD - 651 AD)

The original copy of this letter from Yazdgird III (632 AD - 651 AD) is in Museum of London, We hope one day we can buy it from British who originally took it from us! It is our patriotic duty to poses this valuable asset. The date in which this letter has been written is after the Battle of Ghadesiyeh. As you know, a natural disaster, a massive sand storm blown on Persian troops & practically blinded them & took their battle vision. the sand storm directly blown on their front & caused the loss of this battle.

Later on Muslim Khalif mentioned that Allah sent the massive Sand Storm in Persian Faces, so they lost the battle, Allah was the protector of Muslim against Ajams (what Arabs call Persians, meaning retarded). Battle of Ghadesiyeh did not just cost us a great loss due to a natural disaster, yet it also cost us the life of our greatest Persian Hero, Commander in Chief of Persian Army, General Arteshbod "Rostam-e Farokhzad." Tazis killed Rostam in this battle. Rostam & his squad fought until the last drop of their blood & at the end even after he lost his sword, he fought Arabs with bare hand & his shield, Rostam & his selected squad killed as many Tazi as they could, yet finally it was destiny for our hero to die for Iran. Tazi savages rushed & attacked him in all directions & killed that great Persian soul, Ahura Bless his soul, Rostam was the symbol of Persian Empire & Iranian Glory.

Here's the link: http://www.danielpipes.org/comments/49613

Here's a fragment of the letter:



Image from: http://kavehsara.com/yazdgird_iii_letter_to_omar.htm, with a "smoother" English translation.

[Charles Baker]

Dear Maryam:

At  the time of the letter, Islam had not been in existence for very long.  Persia was an 'ancient' nation descended from the the Babylonian empire in which the Israelites were in exile for many years.  It was what I would call a civilized nation and the fact that Isalm could, in effect, destroy it and did destroy it, augers ill for the civilized nations of today that are seeking to 'accomodate' Islam. 

When you allow a serpent into your house you can expect to be bitten and the bite of the serpent that is Islam will be fatal.

As the Bible states in Genesis 3:1 

Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made.

Charlie -- Persia, ancient Persia, I am sure, can attest to the subtility of the serpent Islam.

As I see it.

God Bless you.  Charlie.

[Maryam]

Shalom Charlie,

Yes the exchange between Calip Umar (the 2nd successor of Muhammad, after Abu Bakr) and Yadzgird III (the last king of the Sassanid Persian empire) took place after the famous battle of al-Qādisiyyah, which resulted in the fall of the Sassanids and the Muslims gaining control over Persia and Mesopotamia (which was part of the Sassanid empire). From the Wikipedia article, Islamic Conquest of Persia:

This was the decisive engagement that sealed the fate of the Sassanid empire. Around the year 636, Rostam Farrokhzād, advisor and general for Yazdegerd III (r. 632–51) led an army of about 100,000 men across the Euphrates River to al-Qādisiyyah, near the present-day city of Hilla in Iraq. Some have criticised him for this decision to face the Arabs on their own ground — on the fringes of the desert — and surmised that the Persians could have held their own if they had stayed on the opposite bank of the Euphrates.

The Caliph Umar dispatched 30,000 men under the command of Sa`d ibn Abī Waqqās against the Persian army. The Battle of al-Qādisiyyah followed, with the Persians prevailing at first, but on the third day of fighting, the Muslims gained the upper hand. The Persian general Rostam Farrokhzād was badly wounded, caught and beheaded. According to the Arab Muslim sources - the only ones known existing -, the Arab losses were 20,000, and the Persians lost 8,500 men and one of the people who did good in the battle is Abo Mihjin al-Thaqafi.

Following the Battle, the Arab Muslim armies pushed forward toward the Persian capital of Ctesiphon (also called Al-Mada'in in Arabic), which was quickly evacuated by Yazdgird after a brief siege. After seizing the city, they continued their drive eastwards, following Yazdgird and his remaining troops. Within a short space of time, the Arab armies defeated a major Sāsānian counter-attack in the Battle of Jalūlā', as well as other engagements at Qasr-e Shirin, and Masabadhan. By the mid-7th Century, the Arabs controlled all of Mesopotamia, including the area that is now the Iranian province of Khuzestan.

Notice that the capital of the Sassanid Persian empire was Ctesiphon - this city is practically right next door to ancient Babylon, and that this battle which marked the fall of the Sassanids also took place in the region of Iraq which was part of ancient Babylonia. And so we've identified the legs of iron in Daniel 2 - the Muslim empire. Ctesiphon was (and still is) the seat of the Assyrian Church of the East, which they call "The See of Babylon", and is (according to them) the city from where Peter wrote his first epistle, it is the same city which was called "Seleucia" under the Seleucid dynasty. Its only when we stick to Mesopotamian history, that the pieces of Daniel 2 truly fall into place.

It was under Caliph Umar when Islam started to spread out of Arabia into the surrounding Mid East nations, Persia & Mesopotamia were amongst the first to be conquered for Allah. Umar was also the Caliph, when the Muslims took Jerusalem & the Holy Land. Here is a map which shows the conquests of the 4 "rightly guided" Caliphs (Umar was the 2nd). We can see from Umar & Yadzgird's exchange that the only motive for the Muslim conquests was purely religious - an act of worship, and that is exactly what jihad is - an act of worship.

You couldn't be more right about your deadly serpent analogy, which the pre-Islamic Persians as well as the eastern church bear witness to. Not only did Islam wipe out glorious civilizations such as ancient Persia (a truly fascinating culture) and Egypt, but also almost half of the entire Church! That alone should prove that Islam is not an insignificant irritation but an extremely dangerous killing machine. The politically correct west would do well to wake up and realize that Muslims are not their friends, but even if they wanted to, it's too late, because now they control our economy and too many of them have infiltrated our lands and government offices.

YHWH bless you Charlie.

[thinker]

Hi Maryam,

Sorry for the delay...been too busy to reply lately. 

Yes, I see what your saying regarding John's language relative to the seventh and eighth head.  But this is where I see a potential problem.  If we interpret John's language as "in the future", then we must presume (according to your premise) that all seven (including the eighth) are future, even the "now is" (since we must look at the vision to be seen in the future...the "now is" at some undisclosed, guessing point in the future to mark the "now is").  But I do not think you hold to your extrapolated premise.  In other words, if you hold to the concept of John's vision being interpreted from a "future" context, then that drags all seven (and the eighth) into some "future" context.

My suggestion is that the language relative to this portion of his vision relating to John's 7 and 8th empire was written from an interpretive mode (Rev. 17:9) "this calls for a mind with wisdom", not just a "seeing into the future" mode.  He is discussing/reflecting on what he saw with the reader.  Thus, (and as you know) Revelation does not always contain future "seeing" (another example, Rev. 12:4) although it may seem like a "future seeing".  Rev. 12 brings panoramic clarity/context to what is going on in the spirit world, even though the event predates John's writings.

So, one is not mandated nor forced to interpret all of John's visions, discussions, etc. solely as futuristic...he sometimes sees backwards in order to bring clarity and context as to what has happened, what is going on in the spirit world and how everything fits in the entire scheme of things, how things in the spirit world played out (past) in human reality (human history) and currently ("now is"--present) and then futuristically ("to come"--future) .  For with YHVH, he sees all from forever past to forever future and is not stuck within a small blip of our human history time frame... it is we humans that need clarity, not YHVH.  A glimpse backwards, a review of the present helps to see more clearly where all this is going and what is was all about.

With that said, let me move onto your next point.  Yes, you are right about the anti-Semitic issue, even America was filled with anti-Semitism (thanks to the great effort of Henry Ford--the wealthy car maker)...but as you clarified, not to the point of it being a political agenda to "wipe them out"...it appears that only Islam is filled with that kind of hate and agenda. 

As far as the Egyptians and Assyrians go, Assyria is all but lost, no longer a nation with little to few people left that acclaim as being Assyrian (not even a homeland or empire to claim as their own, let a lone becoming the 8th Empire).  And yes, Egypt certainly did impact on Israel, and could once again, but it is doubtful that the OIC membership would tolerate Egypt over running its borders to reconquer its old empire.  However, they can have a vested interest in world domination again through the OIC (of which they are a member) voluntarily yielding to the new empire, the OIC, which represents both branches of Islam (Sunni and Shia), even if somewhat fragile (like clay and iron), but nonetheless, cohesive in purpose. 

The OIC stands for the Organization of the Islamic Conference (originally birthed do to a failed attempt by the Jews to burn the Dome of the Rock).

Finally, to your last question.  The Beast (with Seven Heads and the 8th) John saw was the overview of Satan’s Kingdom with the Heads representing how is kingdom played out (and will play out) in human reality.  It has been Satan behind the scenes all along, he is the “Prince and Power of the Air” (or how else could his offer to Yahushua been tempting or valid?—Matthew 4).  But Satan (Red Dragon—Rev. 12:3, who had seven heads and ten horns, who is synonymous as John’s Rev. 13:4, who is synonymous with the beast being rid by the Harlot—Rev. 17:3,8-18 ) required the involvement of human subjects to accomplish his evil plans against the most high and his “wife” (Israel—Rev 12:1), his “only begotten” (Yahushua—Rev. 12:4-5) and the rest of his wife’s “offspring” (the church—Rev. 12:17).  John was seeing the panoramic history, present and future of what had been going on, what was going on and what would go on in human history.  So this is the connection to all 7 Empires, even the 8th. 

So the resurrection of the Medo-Persian Empire (via the OIC, now on its 9th Toe, King, President, who has no physical kingdom, whose only purpose is to give power and life to the OIC) is similarly as wondrous as Israel becoming a nation, which both lead to the resurrection of the age-old hatred and animosity between the two fractious and contentious seeds (Isaac and Ishmael). 

Once again I apologize for the brevity of explanations, but I can always add more if interested.  I will also attempt to upload the matrix in my next posting.

Take care,