All will know the Lord

[grace_for_him]

Hebrews 8 makes a very profound claim that a time will come when all will know the Lord.  We know this means "all mankind" because it tells us man will no longer have to teach his neighbor or his brother saying "Know the Lord".

That is, all who are alive at the time on the earth    

[Scott A]

Sure you do Scott.   Care to explain why Christ went to Gentile country before He made that statement about about being sent to the House of Israel?

He got blown off course by a tempest.

[WalkingWithFire]

Sure you do Scott.  Care to explain why Christ went to Gentile country before He made that statement about about being sent to the House of Israel?

He got blown off course by a tempest.

Remember, he calmed the tempest.  Also, if He got "blown off course" don't you think He would've got back on course if He was only to minister to the literal House of Israel? Furthermore, you can't say he was stranded there because He left when the people besought Him to depart due to their fear.  Luke tells us Jesus went forth to the land.

Luke 8:27
And when he went forth to land, there met him out of the city a certain man, which had devils long time, and ware no clothes, neither abode in any house, but in the tombs.

I have no doubt that it was the will of God that this Gentile in torment be healed of these demons and more than likely it was the Holy Spirit that led him to meet Jesus Christ.

[Keith]

Keith,

No.  One owlam does not necessarily equal another owlam.  Will the Owlam of Jonah in the great fish (3 days and 3 nights) be equal to the owlam of the great tribulation (7 years)?  Of course not!

The phrase "great tribulation" is only mentioned twice in the bible: Matthew 24:21, and Revelation 2:22. Neither verse uses the word "owlam" to describe its duration. You better stick to your Jonah mantra. You're putting 'owlams" where they don't appear...

[Scott A]

Sure you do Scott.  Care to explain why Christ went to Gentile country before He made that statement about about being sent to the House of Israel?

He got blown off course by a tempest.

Remember, he calmed the tempest.  Also, if He got "blown off course" don't you think He would've got back on course if He was only to minister to the literal House of Israel? Furthermore, you can't say he was stranded there because He left when the people besought Him to depart due to their fear.  Luke tells us Jesus went forth to the land.

Luke 8:27
And when he went forth to land, there met him out of the city a certain man, which had devils long time, and ware no clothes, neither abode in any house, but in the tombs.

I have no doubt that it was the will of God that this Gentile in torment be healed of these demons and more than likely it was the Holy Spirit that led him to meet Jesus Christ.

Insightful.

Just want to argue...or what?

Matthew 15:24
But He answered and said, “I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”

...Jesus said it--but you do not believe.  

[WalkingWithFire]

Keith,

It's a common sense thing. The great tribulation last 7 years, so of course the "owlam" is an "owlam" of 7 years.  I didn't quote it from the bible.  It's just a simple use of the languge.

Scott,

As I said, the phrase was inclusive to the lost sheep of Israel.  Jesus went to the Gentiles (Gadarenes) to minister before he spoke those words.   Jesus healed the Gentile daughter of the Gentile woman who He spoke those words to, because she demonstrated great faith by calling Jesus out on his statement about being sent only to the lost sheep of Israel.  She knew who Jesus was and even called Him "Lord".  Furthermore, she understood that Jesus' ministry was inclusive by stating that even "the dogs (gentiles) eat the crumbs that fall from the masters' (Jesus) table.

Matt 15:27
And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table.

And if that didn't make it clear enough, Christ flat out says it...

John 10:16
"I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will hear My voice; and they will become one flock with one shepherd.

[Scott A]

Scott,

As I said, the phrase was inclusive to the lost sheep of Israel.  Jesus went to the Gentiles (Gadarenes) to minister before he spoke those words.   Jesus healed the Gentile daughter of the Gentile woman who He spoke those words to, because she demonstrated great faith by calling Jesus out on his statement about being sent only to the lost sheep of Israel.  She knew who Jesus was and even called Him "Lord".  Furthermore, she understood that Jesus' ministry was inclusive by stating that even "the dogs (gentiles) eat the crumbs that fall from the masters' (Jesus) table.

Matt 15:27
And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table.

And if that didn't make it clear enough, Christ flat out says it...

John 10:16
"I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will hear My voice; and they will become one flock with one shepherd.

You're mixing things up again. The fact that a few crumbs went to the dogs, does not change the fact that Israel and the gentiles were ministered to in completely different times. The problem is that in order to say that Jesus was sent to "all" -- you have to call Him a liar--because HE SAID JUST THE OPPOSITE.

So, please back up and start here:

1. According to the scriptures, is there, or is there not, a time when Israel was chosen out of all the other nations, that had a beginning, and then proceeded until Christ?

2. Are there also times of the gentiles that followed Christ's coming, death, and resurrection?

3. Did God mix the two times?

4. Have there been exceptions?

5. Are the exceptions the rule, or is the rule the rule?

6. Can you allow God the latitude to make exceptions without mixing the two together, when He has for the most part separated the two?

7. With things neatly separated, as God has separated them--can you accurately describe both by mixing them "all" together?

Put aside your emotions and be honest and objective.

Then if you can agree that God has separated the two, we can continue.

[Wings]

Hebrews 8 makes a very profound claim that a time will come when all will know the Lord.  We know this means "all mankind" because it tells us man will no longer have to teach his neighbor or his brother saying "Know the Lord".

Hebrews 8:10-13

This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel after that time, declares the Lord. I will put my laws in their minds and write them on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people. No longer will a man teach his neighbor, or a man his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,' because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest. For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more.

Looking for serious responses.  No arguing please.

Hi there WWF

If you look at the words of your text (above) from Hebrews 8, it says,

'This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel '

ALL ISRAEL - 'will' know Him.

(Not ALL MANKIND)

In Christ
Wings

[WalkingWithFire]

Scott,

I've already made my point.  To say Jesus wasn't sent to all, you have to deny many scriptures starting with John 10:16.

John 10:16
"I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will hear My voice; and they will become one flock with one shepherd.

And the problem you have if you make this about nations, that being the House of Israel and the House of Judah, then you have to accept that all Judah and all Israel will be saved.  If you concede that all Israel will be saved then you must accept that a person can be saved from Hell since the rich man would've been from the House of Israel.  Proof that he was from the House of Israel.  The rich man calls Abraham "father" and Abraham calls him "son".

Luke 16:24-25
And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

I will hold you accountable to this by Romans 11:26 which says "All Israel will be saved".

Romans 11:26
And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Wings,

This scripture is about the new covenant.  I recommend you read through the entire thread which explains how this is inclusive to all mankind. Also, if it only applied to the literal House of Israel, it wouldn't make sense to say they would have no neighbors or brothers they would have to preach to.

[ronmorgen]

Sheeesh, are you guys still at it.

[Scott A]

Scott,

I've already made my point.  To say Jesus wasn't sent to all, you have to deny many scriptures starting with John 10:16.

John 10:16
"I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will hear My voice; and they will become one flock with one shepherd.

Lets be clear: I am not saying that Jesus was not sent to all--HE SAID IT--and I am repeating it (because I believe Him).

And I am not denying any scriptures--I am rather reconciling them ALL just as they are.

I just covered John 10:16--where were you?

I SAID, that the two folds come in different times, one before Christ, and one after--first to the Jew (by the law)and then to the gentile (by grace). Remember?

And the problem you have if you make this about nations, that being the House of Israel and the House of Judah, then you have to accept that all Judah and all Israel will be saved.  If you concede that all Israel will be saved then you must accept that a person can be saved from Hell since the rich man would've been from the House of Israel.  Proof that he was from the House of Israel.  The rich man calls Abraham "father" and Abraham calls him "son".

Luke 16:24-25
And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

Again, I AM NOT the One who made this about nations--JESUS DID!

Soooo....this is NOT my problem (I'm on His side)--it's YOUR PROBLEM (You are the one saying that what He said can't be true). Let me know how that turns out for you  

If you think that this is not about nations after Jesus said so--then YOU DO NOT UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU ARE READING. Hence my last post--offering to take one thing at a time and see it through. I guess you don't want to hear it.. So be it.

But that does NOT mean that all of Israel and Judah have to be saved. God, through the law, has made many, many exceptions to all being saved: "If you do" this, and "if you do not do" that--for centuries!

So your point is not valid.

I will hold you accountable to this by Romans 11:26 which says "All Israel will be saved".

Romans 11:26
And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

I am not "accountable" to you!

However, I and many others have offered you the answer to Romans 11:26: It is your definition of "Israel" that leads you to believe all Israel means, every person. The definition given in the Bible, is NOT one of bloodline, but is defined spiritually. That changes everything. If you need some help with the scriptures, I would be happy to provide them.

So, I agree that all Israel will be saved--just as the Word spells it out: As "many" and "some" of the overall total of those born of the blood--but only as "all" of those who are spiritually "in Christ."

[WalkingWithFire]

Scott,

This has already been explained to you.  Christ went to the Gentiles (Gadarenes) before he spoke those very words that you're misunderstanding.  What he was doing was looking for faith in the Canaanite woman.  Her response was that she called him Lord and pointed out that the dogs (Gentiles) also receive crumbs (God's blessings) from the Master's (Jesus) table.  Jesus then commended the woman for her faith and healed her daughter.

What does Christ say about the other fold?  "I must bring them also."  It does not say anything about different times. As it's been previously pointed out, Christ had already traveled to the Gadarenes (Gentiles).


Furthermore, I'm not saying what Jesus said can't be true.  I just understand that it's inclusive just as the Canaanite woman did.  If it was not inclusive why did Jesus not correct her, instead of commend her, for her great faith after she pointed out the crumbs (the Lord's blessings) were for the gentiles as well?

What I find funny is that you want to regress when the Bible says that all will be saved or an entire nation will be saved. However when scripture can be misinterpreted to suggest that Jesus didn't come to save somebody you jump all over it like you've found something.  Of course it is well known that Jesus Christ came to save all mankind.

1 Tim 4:10
For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

As far as you being accountable.  Yes you are accountable for the claims you make in these forums.  I will also hold you to things you say, such as claims you make about Jesus not coming for both Jews and Gentiles.

Also, it's apparent that you do not know what you're talking about in reference to my belief of Rom 11:26 because I believe that scripture is pointing to the nation of Israel since the rest of the chapter speaks of Israel as a nation.  So you are making things up when you say I translate that scripture to mean every person.  Keep in mind Rom 11:26 says "All" Israel, and does not make reference to "some" or "many".

As I pointed out, this is evidence that the rich man will not stay in Hell because he is from the House of Israel, evidenced by his interaction with Abraham.  He will only be there until his debt is paid.

I've already given you Matt 18:34 that speaks of the unforgiving servant being sent to the tormentors until the debt is paid.

Matt 18:34
And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.

Also in Matthew 5 it speaks of the same principle and it is apparent that Christ is speaking of Gehenna.  A person will be cast into the prison (Gehenna) until the last farthing is paid.

Matt 5:22
but I -- I say to you, that every one who is angry at his brother without cause, shall be in danger of the judgment, and whoever may say to his brother, Empty fellow! shall be in danger of the sanhedrim, and whoever may say, Rebel! shall be in danger of the gehenna of the fire.

Matt 5:25-26
...and to prison thou mayest be cast, verily I say to thee, thou mayest not come forth thence till that thou mayest pay the last farthing.

So this is significant proof that people only stay in Gehenna until their debt is paid.

[Scott A]

Scott,

This has already been explained to you.

I already got your explanation many times over--I got it!

So why don't you address your next post to Jesus...and explain to Him, just how He must have been mistaken?

He was there--and you were not--so let's here it!

I can just hear you:

"Jesus, you went to Gardarenes--so, you just used the wrong Word, right?
"Surely you didn't mean that you were not sent to anyone else--even though that is what you said, right?
"And you said you had another fold--the gentiles--right?
"I mean, the times of the gentiles came after all that--but you still brought them together with Israel--right?"
By the way, since the times of the gentiles hadn't happened yet--how did you do that?!

 

...Otherwise--don't bother getting back to me--you have unfinished business with Jesus to take care of first!

[WalkingWithFire]

Scott,

Oh no, I'm on good terms with Jesus.  I see Him as the Great Savior who died on the cross for all mankind.  So speak for yourself.

1 Tim 4:10
For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

You would be advised to worry about your own relationship with Christ if you think He's planning to torment billions of people in a lake of fire for all eternity.

[Scott A]

...Then you shouldn't mind answering the question then.

So why don't you address your next post to Jesus...and explain to Him, just how He must have been mistaken?

He was there--and you were not--so let's here it!

..I'm happy to stay out of it. Just explain to Jesus, why He must not have meant what He said.

Let's hear it!